Anyone know natural treatments for

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

nematodes, some cestodes and possibly Trichomonas ?

I'm not happy at the thought of using Nilverm...

[Seaweed]

worms? Do you know for sure they have them? I never drench my poultry & have never had issues. I have old chickens as well who still lay well, are plump & have nice red combs. Mine are heritage breeds so they are, in theory, more able to be kept organically. I did run into a woman once who keeps heritage breeds & top spots them with front line for all things creepy crawly :eek: I had severe words about the effect of systemic insecticides. Not to mention she ate the eggs!

I know people who put a clove of garlic in the water for worms. You can get some natural herbal drench you put in water for stock from the betta crop people I think. My experience with trying that was the chooks almost died of dehaydration as they did not want to drink it. Well maybe not that extreme but they definitely would not touch it even on a hot sunny day & were so thirsty when I gave them some clean water they had obviously been hanging out for some time in a parched state. I have read about people giving them diacetamous earth in the feed - which I can't spell! Tansy & wormwood around their pen so they can help themselves is another one. What about pumpkin seeds & carrots or whatever people are supposed to eat? My guess too would be to reduce the amount of grains in their diet ( altho chooks are graminaceaous - which is another word I can't spell! ) Actually would Pat Coleby have written anything about chooks? Her horse stuff & goat stuff was very good.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I had an autopsy done on Miss Nosey, (and Elise).

Miss Nosey, and Elise all started with "bronchial" symptoms, and croaky voices, and then over time, their egg shells changed from brown, to lighter brown, then whitish and gritty... then both started slipping eggs. Miss Nosey's backside went really messy and red. the Elise's did too, so both were autopsied. Here is the autopsy:


Patient: Two Hens Miss Nosey and Elise

Gross examination:

Miss Nosey:

The adult hen is in excellent post mortem condition and very good body condition. The keel can be easily palpated; however, there is adequate skeletal muscle surrounding the keel and a good amount of subcutaneous and coelomic adipose tissue. The neck is fractured and the adjacent soft tissues are haemorrhagic. The cloaca is prolapsed and reddened. The liver is yellow-tan with small numbers of multifocal 1 to 3 mm tan nodules. The crop is full of grass, seeds and slices red cabbage. The proventriculus is empty. The gizzard contains a moderate amount of seeds, cabbage and sand. The ceca are dilated (10 mm diamter0 and filled with gas and light green viscous material. The ovary contains multiple follicles. The oviduct contains a yolk and albumin with no shell.

Elise:

The adult hen is in excellent post mortem condition and poor body condition.

There is only a very small amount of subcutaneous and coelomic adipose tissue. The keel can be easily palpated; however, there is adequate skeletal muscle surrounding the keel. The neck is fractured and the adjacent soft tissues are haemorrhagic. The cloaca is prolapsed and reddened. There is faecal material over the feathers around the vent. There is a 40 x 30 x 20 mm firm, white fibrous mass in the mesosalpinx adjacent to the oviduct. There is a 15 x 5 x 3 mm yellow-tan clot of material free in the adjacent coelomic cavity. The serosa of the coelomic cavity is pink-red and slightly thickened. In the lumen of the proximal oviduct there is a 10 mm diameter oval soft tan mass (remains of an egg) and in the lumen of the distal oviduct there are multiple fragments of egg shell. The ovary contains multiple follicles. The crop contains a small amount of finely ground tan material. The proventric!
ulus is empty. The gizzard contains a small amount of seeds, grass and sand.


Morphologic Dx:
Miss Nosey:
Liver - Hepatopathy
Ceca - possible typhlitis

Elise:
1. Mesosalpinx adjacent to the oviduct - presumptive Leiomyoma
2. Coelomic cavity - Egg yolk coelomitis, chronic
3. Poor body condition

Comment:

Samples of all tissues from both hens have been fixed in formalin.

Samples of fresh liver and cecal contents from Miss Nosey have been refrigerated.

The blood samples have also been refrigerated.

Please let the lab know if you want to go ahead with any further testing.

Miss Nosey does have changes in the liver and intestines that may be due to infection or endoparasites. We would need to do histo to be more definitive.

Elise had a neoplasm (Leiomyomas are common benign neoplasms of smooth muscle) in the oviduct that likely caused the oviduct to not function properly and likely resulted in a salpingitis and secondary coelomitis. This is common in older hens.

The keels on both birds was likely able to be felt as the hens were not flying much and did not have built up flight muscles.

The only other tests I would recommend would be histopath on the ceca and liver (or all tissues) of Miss Nosey, and possibly parasitology on the cecal contents.

Histo showed:
there was a parasite load in the GI tract particularly the ceca (approx similar to cecum in small mammals) specifically nematodes, some cestodes and possibly Trichomonas as well (but another protozoa).

The reason for the question is that Nicole and Nero have had bronchial symptoms in the last two weeks, and Nicole's eggs are changing colour. I don't want her to go the same way.

[Seaweed]

Can you do a fecal egg count on a chicken like you can on a horse?
I would suggest looking up Pat Coleby & also maybe Julia - can't remember her name but she is old & wrote some herbal animal books? See if you can get a fecal egg count done to give you some feedback. Experiment & observe. Even if you bite the bullet & chemically drench them, you will need to work out how to stop them getting reinfested anyways. I know Pat Coleby's theories on horses & goats is worms are a copper deficiency & I know a woman IRL who has gotten them to work for her & her goats. Chooks are obviously a different animal altogether. The other place to try is there is a very good poultry discussion board. They have always been very helpful & knowlegeable when I have had questions.
www.homesteadingtoday.com (http://www.homesteadingtoday.com)

[Seaweed]

Forgot to say a chooks eggs naturally get lighter as they get older & thru the season anyways as they get less shell pigment available. This happens to all my old welsummer hens who start out the season laying quite dark eggs that get lighter & lighter shelled. One is 6 1/2 this year & the other is 5 1/2. Both are still going strong.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://laudodeumfarmholistichomesteading.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html

this is mainly goats.

Am starting out in earnest now. I think that Pied now has problems...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Transferring URLs here to look at them later:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=255861

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/diseaseinfo/index.php

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.flytesofancy.co.uk/chickenhouses/basic_chicken_keeping.html

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1571

What is your view on this thread Seaweed?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

sigh........................................

[Seaweed]

I don't know. It is kinda wierd she is drenching them & then asking if it is worms. I do have a 6 year old silver laced wyandotte who at times near the end of the season gets a pasty butt. I have had to cut the odd dag off her even but she lays well & her comb is always bright red & she is active, bright eyed etc so I have not worried about it any futher. I think the problem is modern production chooks are not really immune to anything much. They generally only have a short life span & get pretty much dosed up on all the chemicals going. I read something somewhere about how if you wanted to succeed organically farming you needed to get the old hardy worm resistant breeds which had been with us for centuries. Not something like a romney sheep which needed proping up with chemicals. ETA: This is where
http://web.mac.com/trg_i/organicstud/LIVESTOCK_BREEDS.html
He also has an interesting concept of sabbatical fallowing. I am not sure how you could relate that to chickens in a garden situation but it is an interesting piece of info to store for later use.
I guess if you wanted to work it all out, you need to find out the life cycle of the parasite, how to kill or minimise its effect naturally. If there are any nutritional factors ( eg like the copper deficiency thing in goats/horses ). If poultry need worms. There is a theory horses need some worms. How to stop them then becoming a problem.
Not much help I know, but as I said earlier, I have never drenched or needed to drench my chooks. This is also why I have never owned a brown shaver despite being offered many of them.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

the other problem is that DH doesn't let me lime or fertilize the lawn, on the basis that the grass grows better and makes more work for him.

sigh.

So it could be that the quality of what grass they do get isn't good enough either.

I've shut up the scratch area and the compost heap, since I've read on one of the websites, that the eggs and worms survive better in wet places.

problem is that means they won't get their earwigs and slaters and stuff either.

Pied isn't a shaver. She's a banty... her backside isn't looking quite so bad tonight.

Nicole seems to be fine at the moment...

Sigh.

[Seaweed]

They can probably also get worms from eating earthworms. As we know living is dangerous. Seriously worm eggs are probably everywhere so at least if they get their slaters etc they will have more of whatever to make them healthy. There has to be more to it than just there are worms about they are going to get sick.

Maybe replace said chooks with something a bit more resilient. Or at least phase something more resilient in when it comes to replacement time. Does dh mow the lawn with a 2 stroke mower or a weedeater? If he weedeats the lawn, you can give them the clippings. Some of my chooks love comfrey. They all adore chickweed & puha. Can you not just lime it when he is out? Devious I know but I don't think lime makes the grass grow more. Having chooks on it fertilising it well could tho!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yeah, like dorkings :D ????

I've limed it once, but he knew.

Both strimer and 2-stroke. The clippings go in the compost bin and they can eat them if they wish, but they usually prefer standing up grass....

I collect the chook poo twice a day and it gets buried in the compost heaps...

Whenver I go walking I collect puha....

Chickweed means different things to different people. Can you post a picture of the one you mean please?

[Seaweed]

http://www.ipm.msu.edu/weeds-nursery/images/CmChickweedFoliage&Flowers.jpg is a picture. It is stellaria media. You can make pesto with it & put it in salads.

No suggestions on the husband. My way of dealing with them is a bit radical!

& yes dorkings are the oldest known domestic breed of poultry & are very good at free ranging.

Have you thought of growing wheat or barley for them?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

thanks for the picture...hmmm... I'd have to look closely for that.. don't seem to have it here. I need my limited garden for me. You've seen the size of it :D

I'd rather have my husband. At least I have a good one.

[Seaweed]

I will look for some seed if you would like. It is one of those non invasive weeds. Kinda like miner's lettuce. Once you have it you always do. I just leave it where I am not putting anything else when my beds are fallow.

Decent husbands are worth hanging onto. Even if they won't let you lime the lawn :D

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I'd love some seed. I could use it as winter ground cover where plants aren't growing :D

[Seaweed]

I will look some out & put it in with the nettle seed as it all grows together. It will be useful winter ground cover as well as you can have nettle soups & chickweed salads & pesto. Chickweed pesto with baked potatoes & nettle soup is awesomely yummy on a cold winters day!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Sounds very exciting. Thanks Seaweed.

You will be getting a box from us in the not too distant future.