Tongue Tie

[ema-adama]

So my DS had this, and we had it snipped by a pediatric dentist when he was days old. It immediatly improved his latch and my nipple pain went away.

So, I remember reading something somewhere about folic acid and tight frenulum. Does anyone know anything more about that?

Why are so many babies born with tight frenulums? Is there any way to know what is causing it? I find it hard to believe 'it's just one of those things', get it cut and forget all about it.

I did not have one that I know of, and neither did DH.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I don't know anything about it :giggle:

[ema-adama]

I'm going to be a dork, and ask why that is funny?

I have found this, http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/midline.php, where it discusses tongue tie being a midline issue, and hence folate being involved, with genes also being part of the picture when it comes to who needs how much folate.

It comes down to the nutrition of the mother. Anyway, I'll dig around a bit more and see what else I can find.

Apparently tongue tie is associated with food sensitivities... so far DS does not have anything that screams food sensitivity to me - although I could always be missing something.

[Seaweed]

Is that food sensitivities in the baby who has tongue tie? Or the mother ? I don't know anything about tongue tie but I do know gluten sensitivity for example blocks mineral absorption so one example from my experience would be someone with gluten sensitivity has bad teeth or gets cramps from the lack of magnesium. Food sensitivities often seem to run in families too. Altho' I have not worked out if they are maternal or paternal. Or potentially both.

[ema-adama]

In the infant - although if the mother is having problems absorbing folate, I guess that would impact on the midline issues.

MTHFR polymorphisms seems to be central to understanding personal needs for folate - but I really do not know what I am talking about just yet.

http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/folate.php

Folate

The Basics

Folate is a B vitamin found in many foods. With B12 (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/b12.php) and methionine (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/methionine%3C/a) it is used to make methyl groups (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/methyl.php), it is used to regenerate BH4 (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/bh4.php), and it is involved in purine synthesis.
It isn't shelf stable, so most supplements are folic acid. Folic acid can be converted into folate in the body, involving the MTHFR enzyme. Depending on genetics, some people are more sensitive to their folate status, require more, and do better with food forms as opposed to folic acid.
Reasons to Suspect

If you have MTHFR polymorphisms, high homocysteine (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/homocysteine.php), history of stroke or cancer, midline defects (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/midline.php), food sensitivities... basically if you're reading this, you should suspect folate.
Sources

Folate is in many foods. Some of the richest sources (http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=63) are lentils, chicken liver, legumes and leafy greens. The form in plants is more susceptable to heat damage than the form in animal products.
Folinic acid is another naturally occuring form of folate that is in many supplements. It is used in another part of folate metabolism, and does shortcut some of the processing folic acid requires. It still needs conversion by the MTHFR enzyme, though, so will not be the magic bullet for those with certain polymorphisms.
Folic acid is in almost all multivitamins and B complexes. It is not a great form for some people, and can compete in the body, making the active folate less accessible. 5-MTHF and methyl folate are names for the active form. It can be bought as a supplement called FolaPro (http://www.metagenics.com/products/detail.asp?pid=215) and may also be available in Thorne supplements.
Closely Related

Methyl Groups (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/methyl.php)
BH4 (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/bh4.php)
Tyrosine (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/tyrosine.php)
Serotonin (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/serotonin.php)
Thyroid Hormones (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/thyroid.php)
Dopamine (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/dopamine.php)
Glutamate (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/glutamate.php)
Ammonia (http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/ammonia.php)

Diagram


Inputs/Outputs/Regulators


More Biochemistry


References

folate deficiency associated with allergies:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(09)00387-X/abstract (http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2900387-X/abstract)
notes

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

tongue-tied is also a slang expression for people who when asked a question, get a verbal equivalent of stage fright. A very rare situation for me.

sorry... :o

[ema-adama]

No worries... I thought I was asking a daft question :o And got a little defensive :o :o

It's really quite facinating.... although to be honest, my thoughts are all over the place. I am starting to think I need to do some sort of formal learning to just get all my ducks in a row so to speak... I just jump from thing to thing... although it is all starting to fit together.

It was so hard deciding whether to cut his lingual frenulum or not.... The more I read up about it, I am so glad we did.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z9Xw3-pkz1YC&pg=PA181#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Very good book that goes into the different types of ties and their impact on sucking.

[gilima]

I remember reading about this a while back. I think their was a discussion about tongue tie on another forum .......
I remember midline issues being discussed too. I agree t is very interesting.

[ema-adama]

Yes, I found this being discussed on MDC, although no references were given

[cartersmom]

We also had this experience. DS was clipped in the hospital when he was just days old as well.....we tookk him home and the next 8 weeks were TERRIBLE. Breastfeeding was a nightmare and very painful....I saw 2 different LC's...neither of whom could really solve the problem. I saw a 3rd LC who was very experienced with TT and said she thought it was realted to this still...even though the problem had been "corrected". She refrred us to a specialist. At 10 weeks old we went to see her and she said that they had not clipped it enough. He had had level 4 TT. She clipped it more and also clipped the top and within 3 weeks BF was a breeze and he's 18 months and still BF (only twice a day now :(). I am so grateful to that LC that spotted this because I was on the verge of giving up the BF.

It is a widespeard issue that very few peds, LC's and docs have much experience with.

[TanyaL]

This site

http://www.tonguetie.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2

talks about tongue tie sometimes (but not always) being present in cases of cleft lip and palate. Those are pretty commonly associated with folate status, aren't they? And it describes the development that happens in the first trimester as the tissues in the mouth separate and differentiate.

To try to find a citation, I googled ankyloglossia and folate and I'm seeing hits in articles, but mostly ones I'd need a subscription to see the full text--The Journal of Human Lactation one is the one I want to see since it discusses folate, B12 and B6. But I'm also seeing a lot of ankylloglossia and cleft lip and/or palate in other articles so they do seem to follow to some extent.

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/8/10/1853

This page talks a lot about orofacial clefts and includes tongue tie in the discussion as a related issue.

In the US, the combination of wretched diets and environmental stresses on our methylation pathways seems to be a horrible combination for growing healthy babies. I agree it should just be accepted as right and a healthy variation on normal for babies to be tongue tied, but given the lack of appreciation of nutrition in general, and in how much nutrition varies from individual to individual, the path doesn't look rosy to me in the short term.

eta: this dog breeder states that cleft palate in dogs is related to excess or deficiency of vitamin A, and linked to B-12 in dogs too, interesting given that it's the other vitamin to make methyl groups, along with folate. But he doesn't cite any sources. Interesting that clefts happen a lot in diabetic dogs, my understanding is that diabetic people often have difficulty converting beta carotene into vitamin A. Since I've seen health similarities between my dog and myself, I thought I would mention it. :bolt:
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/cleftpalate.htm