Where's the proof?

[bbrandonsmom]

I guess you could say this is a small rant. I'm feel like I'm constantly being asked "where's the proof that vaccines are bad...there is no connection to autism". I tell these people that it's not just about autism, and they ought to read some of the medical journals about what some of the ingredients can do to us (just trying to keep it simple for them), or to read the history of the vaccine/disease etc. But it feels like a constant back forth deal, because then they say that there are studies proving vaccines are safe-there is no connection to autism, even though I tell them to look elsewhere. Or, that since I didn't live through the decades where the chd's were around, and saw the death and heartache, that people just forgot. Then the discussion of course just gets more complicated for them than I think, because I'll bring up looking at vaccines starting in the 90's and how they are very different from even when I was child and it's like talking to, oh I don't know what.

So what to say or do in these situations. Sometimes I"m able to just drop it, but others, the other person wants to keep going. Not sure if they are wanting to learn something, or are trying to prove vaccines are harmfree. I guess I don't have a simple answer to tell them for "proof" that vaccines are harmful to the body.

[MinorityView]

Flip it.

Say, where is the evidence that vaccines are safe? Vaccines are an intervention, they are injected into people, sometimes several at one time--please provide some evidence that this practice doesn't cause harm.

The natural state of human beings is sans vaccines.

On the "vaccines saved us" mantra, ask them to find the death rate for four diseases in 1910 and the death rate for the same disease the year BEFORE the vaccine became widely used. And if they aren't willing to do the research, then just shrug and say that you aren't interested in their OPINIONS AND BELIEFS about vaccines and diseases, you want the facts, thank you very much.

Stop letting them set the parameters of the discussion to favor their point of view.

[ZGT Mummy]

Or just do what I do and say "I have my reasons as you do yours" and walk away.

I don't have anywhere near enough information in my head to engage someone in an intellectual debate on the matter anyway, or for that matter anywhere near enough information for myself either!

For me it has now become an intuative decision, based on what I have learned, mostly from here, about the body, nutrition, health etc.

I also feel that life is never about an easy ride. Any easy ride always comes with strings attached in my view. Vaccines are the easy ride, so what are the strings?

But then it's easy for me to say all this because apart from my step-brother I've not really encountered anyone who's challenged me. Only one of my really close friends knows I'm not vaccinating anymore, but she's a very respectful person and has never said anything about it. It's certainly not something I'd yell out at kindy. In fact DS1's school is waiting for his immunisation certificate to be filled out and returned. I'm really dreading that actually. I have visions of him being dragged up in front of the school! Even though he's only missed his 4 year old ones.

[ema-adama]

where's the proof that vaccines are bad...there is no connection to autism

What MV said. Flip it.. Where's the proof that vaccines are safe? Or, where is the proof that the vaccine schedule is safe? What makes you confident that the vaccine schedule/ practice of vaccination is safe and effective? If someone gets really snarky, ask them to explain why they are so angry.

Or just leave it. I have learnt to never talk about vaccines IRL. Unless someone asks me, I answer only their questions. And leave them free to make their personal choice.

[Tici]

I guess it's like with anything.. if pople aren't ready to hear it there is just zero, zilch, zippo point in talking about it.

A few weeks ago a freind of mine rang me out of the blue (who hardly EVER calls me) , she mentioned she was going to get Gardisil that afternoon ( she knows nothing of my stance on vaccines).

Well I just had this pang of a feeling that I had to tell her there were a tonne of reports that it could be harmful, that she didn't need to get it, that there were some very serious reactions, even death. To cut a long story short she waited a few days and said she would do a bit of research and read some articles I emailed her. But then came back to me and said she decided to get it because after all ' We were all fine after being vaccinated as children'' .... :duh:


I used to get all fired up.. thought I had this duty to educate the masses.

Now, if it comes up I steer very clear unless there is genuine interest :bolt:

[MinorityView]

You tried.

And...if she does have a reaction to the first Gardasil shot she may not get the other two. She won't be going into this quite as blindly.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

People make their own beds - they can lie in them too.

If people don't listen, and it turns to custard, they shouldn't expect sypathy.......

[justine]

People make their own beds - they can lie in them too.

If people don't listen, and it turns to custard, they shouldn't expect sypathy.......

Your a hard woman Hilary.

[bbrandonsmom]

I've been told I'm heartless by certain people, but I'm thinking a lot more analytical I guess is the best word, these days, so......
I hope your friend has no reactions regarding the Gardisil.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Your a hard woman Hilary.

It comes from being on the butt end of rabid provaccine people ranting about me not vaccinating my children, - as well as also being at the butt end of pro-vaccine people whose kids have serious reactions, and who then expect compensation miracles from me after three years work, pro-bono. They get the miracle, then vaccinate their second child, who has the same serious reaction, and come back wanting me to perform another free legal miracle. And when I say no, throw their toys.

And I could tell you a few other hair curlers too.

I will help people who genuinely didn't know, and who are prepared to move forwards and learn from mistakes, but me and whiners do not get on. :ein:

[MinorityView]

I'd have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who is warned and then goes ahead and takes the risk.

But we can always hope that someone who is warned will at least notice when they get ill following the vaccine...

[justine]

OMG how stupid is that. I see where you are coming from Hilary and please please tell us more "Hair curlers"

Is there enough of them to perhaps write (another) book? :-)))

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yeah, there's enough to write a book about it, but I'd not, for two reasons. First, it would raise my blood pressure, and that's not something I like, but more important.... because in my more compassionate moments, I realise we all make mistakes, and the people concerned would recognise themselves immediately, and would that be fair???

I could also write a book about the hair curlers with overseas cases both past and ongoing, but I think that would also be damaging to my own health, having to relive all that!

[bbrandonsmom]

Goodness, some of the stuff I'm uncovering makes me want to cringe. I can see how your bp would go up putting it all into a book. It's quite frightening some of these things. Almost too unbelievable to be true.

MV-it's the people who get ill and still don't believe there is a connection. I especially feel for the children, it's not like they have a say.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

:lol:
The first book, JALP, just about tore me to shreds for the same reason.

Actually, I had a fantastic "case" to put into one of my books, but couldn't, because REALITY is sometimes far weirder, and more insane than fiction.

it's a fantastic case, but everyone including the lawyer, the readers panel etc... even after seeing the proof that what I was saying was true, said that it was so far out of left field, that it would discredit the rest of the work. They were intriqued by it, and shocked and astonished when the proof was provided, and wanted to know the enth degree themselves, yet all of them agreed that it could NOT go into a book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

And that's a direct result of considering the conformed mindsets of the average reader, who struggle to comprehend the truth of anything outside the orbit of their own life experience, and cannot understand that the medical and political system can be corrupt to the core.

[bbrandonsmom]

You wouldn't happen to have this "book" available to those of us who'd like to read it? Even if in pdf?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

............... Nope :)