Some measles history

[MinorityView]

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/02/28/vaccine-myths-round-four/

You know the argument where your opponent says: "just visit an old graveyard and you'll understand why we need vaccines"?

:olee: Wandered to the 1930s and found out how measles was looking way back then.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

It's amazing the myths they spin isn't it?

[MinorityView]

Vaccines are magic. They even rewrite history.

[ema-adama]

I don't think measles and chickenpox are necessarily comparable. I had both (and mumps and whooping cough).Mumps and chickenpox don't really feature in my memory. I remember being told not to scratch the pox as it would leave a scar. I remember the whoop from whooping cough - but that was while I was running around outside playing. Not sick really.

Measles on the other hand had me in bed for over a week, in a dark room and feeling very weak. It was not a mild disease. Although I recovered just fine. I was 9 years old.

[Seaweed]

You know the argument where your opponent says: "just visit an old graveyard and you'll understand why we need vaccines"? The last time someone did a version of that one was on one of my kids when we were on a graveyard tour. I had to say something not very polite.

Ema-adama both my kids had measles about a year ago. One was 5 1/2 & the other was 8. It was really mild. In fact, they have had colds from school that were worse. The key is to treat it properly. Lots of SA & also CLO for vitamin A.

[ema-adama]

Yeah, I don't know how my mum was treating my measles. She was definitely expecting it and would not have been scared of it, as she believed that it was a beneficial disease for children to have (she was an anthroposophist). I don't know why I was so poorly with it. This was in 1986. And my mother kept me away from allopathic fever suppressors or any drugs. I probably would have had homeopathic remedies, if anything at all.

I do know that she was hospitalised with encephalitis at the age of 12/13 with post measles complications. I have no idea how my grandmother treated the measles itself, but I am guessing she did what the doctors told her, which would have been whatever the rage was in the 1950's.

I do not think measles needs to be feared in healthy children, and I am not confident that the vaccine is a sustainable solution. But I also do not think measles is like chickenpox. It is not only immune compromised children who get really sick from measles.

This is my issue. I do not think there is a magic formula to keep your kid is safe from every disease. Yes, supplements to support the immune system make much more sense to me than a vaccine. However, they are not fullproof IMO. I think they are safer and work to support the body through illness, but I do not think you can avoid every serious complication from disease with diet and supplements.

I think it is dangerous to give the impression that there is a risk free alternative to vaccines.

Yes, you can predict much more accurately who will have a serious complication based on nutritional status of the child, environment factors and the nursing skills of the primary caregiver. It is not as random as pro vaxers put out. But there can still be an element of random stuff just going wrong.

Seaweed, that is awesome that your girls had such a mild case.

I hope I am not eaten alive for my opinion.

[MinorityView]

No, I agree with you. Measles can be tricky. Note that the article didn't recommend abandoning measles vaccination, it just pointed out that in the U.S. at least, the vaccine didn't have a lot to do with the historical reduction in measles deaths.

What I found striking from the article is how broad-based the results are from rising living conditions. With vaccines you deal with one disease at a time. The improved living conditions brought about huge and simultaneous drops in four major illnesses at once. And there were probably lots of other benefits, too, which wouldn't necessarily be noticed: fewer people suffering the effects of chronic malnutrition, for example.

[ema-adama]

I liked the article, I did not feel like the article was saying measles is just like a cold or a pesky rash. Yes, the deaths declined dramatically prior to the vaccine, by a long shot. I do not think the incidence of measles itself really changed too dramatically, just more children were surviving it.

I think it is possible for parents to believe that it is just like a cold and not be aware of potential complications, when with measles it seems more likely to happen. And this could be dangerous.

I do not advocate for measles vaccination on a mass scale. But I can understand why some parents would choose the vaccine, especially if the monovalent vaccines were available. For instance for an older child who has not had the disease. Or if a parent feels uncomfortable with their child passing the illness on and perhaps causing a permanent disability or death in another child. I am not saying that would be my choice, but there is more than one 'right' choice. Mass vaccination with MMR is not a right choice in my mind in any way, shape or form.

[Seaweed]

I think it is dangerous to give the impression that there is a risk free alternative to vaccines.
I think it was Spy who said that the kids that do better with vaccines as the ones who are strong & healthy & do better with the diseases? My thinking on this is that if you are compromised enuf that the VPDs are going to be pretty serious, then the vax will probably not do you much good either. Maybe I have just been lucky as my kids are strong. I am always very clear to point out to people when I say that we don't vax that we are aware we could get the diseases. Ema-adama were you a vegetarian when you were a child? I know vitamin A is pretty crucial in measles treatment. The kindy assistant where dd#3 was at kindy got measles as well. He was pretty badly sick. His partner did not know about vitamin A & measles but once she got him onto the CLO, he got alot better.

[Spy]

Thing is, yes, measles can be tricky and hard and complicated, but so can be chickenpox. So can be a cold or a scarlet fever or a flu. People, children included, could get any of these things complicated and even die, and it will not necessarily be self inflicted by poor treatment (although poor treatment is guaranteed to make things worse but things can be tough in their own right to begin with).

There is no such thing as risk free anything :). Life has risks, they are baseline but they are risks. Problem with vaccine is, they do NOT necessarily eliminate these risks but they ALWAYS DO add risks of their own. And that certainly applies to single measles vaccine (was it Dr. Mendelsohn who said that its side effects looked like a textbook of neurological diseases or was he quoting someone else?). So by choosing not to do the vaccine we DEFINITELY avoid the risks of vaccination, but we do not eliminate the baseline risks of life (including the risk of any complicated disease, including measles specifically), and why would we?

I personally don't know how would my children handle measles. I really don't. I know what I would do if I had to nurse them through it but I have no illusions that it is foolproof. One of my kids had a lot more uncomfortable case of chickenpox than the other (treated similarly, except needed homeopathy whilst the little one didn't), and it is also likely he would be hit harder with measles than his younger brother. Or maybe the other way round, who can tell :). But I would rather deal with the risks of disease than the risks of vaccine (and the risks of disease anyway since vaccinated people can still get measles!)

[ema-adama]

Yes, things can go wrong with chickenpox, flu and measles. The question is the rate at which they can go wrong. I would be interested in data that shows measles having the same rate of complications as other childhood illnesses in the same population.

I personally feel more comfortable exposing my child (ren) to measles when they are young, optimally between the age of 5 - 9, and get it over and done with. If I have a daughter, I know that her children will be better protected from measles as infants, and for boys and girls, I know they have a better chance of not getting the disease as adults, when it has a higher rate of complication.

At the moment, what I have read and my personal experience, makes me think that measles is not nearly as benign as chickenpox.

This doesn't mean I am advocating for measles vaccination.

It does mean that I know there are risks with the disease, and I know that I cannot eliminate those risks with diet alone. Greatly reduce them, yes. Eliminate them, no.

I sometimes get the feeling that when going over why some children die or get very sick, the assumption is that if they had only eaten the perfect diet, drunk the purest water and breathed the freshest air the tragedy could have been avoided. And that irritates me. I know these things are important. And their importance is not understood by many many many people. However, not every tragedy can be avoided.

This has just been bugging me in general as I think about the choices I have made. And I do not like the subtle promises to mothers that if they do x, y, or z their child/ren will be fine. Perhaps I have been reading too much on line and not understanding what I read that well. But I am often left with the impression from 'anti-vax' discussions that if only you have clean water, fresh air and optimal diet, you have nothing to worry about.

This is not directed at any one person. I just was rather taken aback by the comparing of chickenpox and measles complications as being pretty much to equal.

[Seaweed]

I actually remember chicken pox being worse than measles. But then that could also be a memory thing as I would have been somewhere between 3 & 4 when I got measles & I was probably 5 when I got chicken pox. I get irritated with some of those antivax sentiments as well but I do my best to just ignore it. You need to make up your own mind & everyone will be trying to sell you something so to speak. As for optimal diet, I think we could argue for a very very long time as to what that is. There is possibly also the key. I have yet to come across anyone IRL who had to be hospitalised with measles. Bear in mind too that I was born before they were MMRing everyone so we all had measles. I would still take our chances with the disease than with the vax.

[bbrandonsmom]

My sister had Measles when she was only a few months old. So this would have been oh, 1974 I think. They had to keep her in a dark room. I don't know how they treated the disease other than that. She was not bf-none of us were. Anyhow, she had no complications.

"But I would rather deal with the risks of disease than the risks of vaccine (and the risks of disease anyway since vaccinated people can still get measles!)"-I couldn't agree more with that. Even given the complications of my oldest, which I honestly believe were in part triggered by the vaccines he had, so I would not want to risk injecting him with something that could possibly cause him more harm.

The bad thing with Measles (and Mumps and CP), is that there is not much natural exposure now. Does one get the vaccine because the kids probably won't get it, do you hope they some how catch it-via wc, vax or shed, or just keep your fingers crossed they never catch it as they grow up? If the risk is greater to get the disease as an older child or adult, why the promotion of mass vaccination, when most adults do not keep up with the vaccine schedule as they get older, and so are at risk?

[ema-adama]

I am having issues in general in my life where I feel like I am not being heard and my communication is problematic.

Perhaps that is happening here.

If so, please ignore my grumpy grumblings.

I have pretty much made up my own mind with regards to the role vaccines play in my families health. I am quite happy with my choice when it comes to measles.

However, I do have a certain respect for measles as a disease, more than I would worry about chickenpox or whooping cough for instance.

Again, this could me just being touchy, but has anything that I have posted given the impression that we had better all rush out and get the vaccine to lower our risk?

Is it unacceptable to say that the disease is risky? More risky than other diseases? Is that a threatening statement?

Seriously, I do not understand why it is so hard to say the disease can be scary, without rushing for the vaccine. I agree with taking risks with the disease over risk of the vaccine with added possible risk of the disease. I have to put my trust in something, and I am more comfortable putting my trust in a well nourished, healthy, happy child rather than a syringe.

:gaah:

I should probably go and have it out with my MIL rather than pester the users on this board.

[TanyaL]

Is it unacceptable to say that the disease is risky? More risky than other diseases? Is that a threatening statement?



It seems very common sense to me. It's the one that I'd have to work hardest, with my kids, to avoid a bad outcome.




This is my issue. I do not think there is a magic formula to keep your kid is safe from every disease. Yes, supplements to support the immune system make much more sense to me than a vaccine. However, they are not fullproof IMO. I think they are safer and work to support the body through illness, but I do not think you can avoid every serious complication from disease with diet and supplements.

I think it is dangerous to give the impression that there is a risk free alternative to vaccines.

Yes, you can predict much more accurately who will have a serious complication based on nutritional status of the child, environment factors and the nursing skills of the primary caregiver. It is not as random as pro vaxers put out. But there can still be an element of random stuff just going wrong.


I agree we can't guarantee outcomes, but I think part of this discussion is a push-back to what I feel is part of the cultural beliefs that exist in the US. I can't speak for New Zealand or Australia, and I know the majority of the board members are residents there, but in America there's a general belief that we cannot affect health. We (as a generality) do not have a toolbox to use when our kids get sick, we tend to think that either the kids will get well or they won't so we don't even try to create that toolbox, and if we're worried, we see a doctor who will write a prescription. Changing that cultural belief is a huge thing.

And from a practical perspective, although I truly do not believe I can guarantee my kids' good health, I know there are things that are both outside my control and beyond my knowledge level (so someone else could have a good outcome where I cannot), I have had excellent success with my son. And for his first year, we were eating a crappy diet, he had multiple nutrient deficiencies, and a generally messed up immune system and we had one sick visit that resulted in an un-filled prescription. And I didn't have a big toolbox at that point--if I can do this, most people can, and most kids have better overall health to boot. IMO the problem is not the lack of specific knowledge, that's easy to fix, it's the underlying assumption that parents can't do anything for their kids' health.

So I think that's what, on other boards, part of the almost shouting about diet and supplements and such is about. My guess anyway.



I think it is possible for parents to believe that it is just like a cold and not be aware of potential complications, when with measles it seems more likely to happen. And this could be dangerous.



I agree. Although it was deciding to stop vaccinating the kids that spurred me to look into other ways to better the odds of a good outcome when illness comes to us, I think it's actually important for everyone, regardless of their vaccination decisions. And I have been surprised at people I know IRL who do not vaccinate but also don't know diddly-squat about supporting their kids through illness. It gives a poor impression of parents who don't vaccinate when people panic at the thought that their kids have contracted a vaccinate-able disease and they have no idea what to do but go to a doctor.



It does mean that I know there are risks with the disease, and I know that I cannot eliminate those risks with diet alone. Greatly reduce them, yes. Eliminate them, no.

I sometimes get the feeling that when going over why some children die or get very sick, the assumption is that if they had only eaten the perfect diet, drunk the purest water and breathed the freshest air the tragedy could have been avoided. And that irritates me. I know these things are important. And their importance is not understood by many many many people. However, not every tragedy can be avoided.

This has just been bugging me in general as I think about the choices I have made. And I do not like the subtle promises to mothers that if they do x, y, or z their child/ren will be fine. Perhaps I have been reading too much on line and not understanding what I read that well. But I am often left with the impression from 'anti-vax' discussions that if only you have clean water, fresh air and optimal diet, you have nothing to worry about.


I guess I addressed this above, my guesses as to why discussions can turn this way. And maybe it's part of the contentiousness of the whole vaccination issue? I can only speak from my experience living in the US, but the decision to not vaccinate is generally viewed quite poorly here, and so, in general discussion, the defensiveness level can go up and people are not as willing to admit to the risks of their decisions. It hinders mature and responsible discussion, but especially for people who have been treated badly at vulnerable times, I can understand why it happens.

[MinorityView]

Just to lighten stuff up a bit, my dear mother nursed 5 children through every possible and plausible childhood illness and a few unlikely ones as well. The only thing I recall her actually complaining about was having 3 itchy children with chickenpox at one time. I was one of the children, but it is before my memory kicks in.

When I got the measles, seven of us were living in a two room apartment in a not very nice neighborhood in Patterson, NJ. My mother, father and youngest brother had the bedroom, my two older brother, my younger sister and I slept in the living room. On the floor, if my memory is right. Since I had the measles I got to join my parents in the bed, and I think my little brother may have been bumped into the living room. I remember being in the dark and feeling sort of yucky.

But I don't recall my mother ever commenting on that as one of the tough moments in her life as a mother.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

My husband had measles very badly as a child, but his mother did nothing, other than draw the curtains. So when our kids got it, he was like a wound up spring, but they sailed through. When they got it a second time, after we'd got over the FACT that they had got it twice, he shrugged.

The only infectious illness that was a really big deal for me was epstein barr. That was a year I will never forget.

[Spy]

I do remember being very miserable with mumps. I lost taste and had somewhat impaired hearing for a little while and spent over a week in bed. I was about 9 or 10 which is why I think I remember it as something nasty. I have no recollection whatsoever of my rubella, I had it at two. Either because it was mild or because it was too early to remember (I am tipping the second option is more to the point). My brother had mumps even worse than me, he was 15 and in a school camp which he pretty much spent in sick bay, poor thing. He has two beautiful children and a grandchild (hello sterility). His measles, remarkably, was milder than his mumps (and also earlier). I never had measles or chickenpox :). But I did almost kick the bucket with pertussis at 27 years of age - not so much from cough as from the antibiotics I was eating like candy, idiot. Wish I knew about the airplanes back then - 8 months!!!!