Breast Feeding Study?

[Seaweed]

I have a friend who is a lactation consultant & a midwife. I went to see her yesterday & she was telling me about a study someone did. Apparently they compared mothers & babies who followed traditional hospital bf advice of 10 mins either side vs mothers who let their babies have one side at a time for as long as they liked. She said shockingly the babies who had 10 mins on either side were bigger & their mothers had less bf problems. The kids were milling around so I did not get around to asking who did the study but I may ring her later & ask. I am sure it would be an interesting read & to see how they came to that conclusion, who they studied & so on.

[Spy]

Not sure I understand what exactly 'traditional hospital advice' means, but bigger babies do tend to switch sides more often :D obviously these things do depend a lot on a few other factors (like breast capacity and letdown volume/frequency), but best I can remember, my two switched every 5 minutes or less, and they were big. And yes, once this started to happen, my bf issues got a lot better. :LMAO:

[MinorityView]

Hm. Interesting. I ended up giving my daughter just one breast at each feeding. She was the fattest baby I knew. Grew like a rocket. I think it was a combination of a couple of things--she was a very vigorous nurser and I tended to produce a lot of milk very easily. I could have fed two babies and sometimes I wished I had another one to unload on!

Luckily she ended up as a tall, fairly thin adult.

[bbrandonsmom]

? Niether of my boys were boob switchers until they got older. I had latch issues with both early on. Both stayed above avg in height/weight dept too. So I don't know that it made a difference staying mainly on one breast or not for us.

[Trogdor]

due to pain issues I had my girls switch every ten minutes or so. I had skinny babies. (the truly "large" baby was bottle fed from the get go...one of those things you regret in life) It could just be body type as to this day they remain thin. My 11yo dd is just over four and a half feet tall and weighs maybe 65lbs. She still wears kid sizes in shoes. *giggle* My other dd (the other one who bf) is 5'5" and weighs maybe 100lbs. For that matter...now that I'm typing...my son..(the bottle fed one) was a chunk as a child but as a 16yr old he's a rail. A "String bean" if you will. Just under six feet and possibly 120lbs soaking wet. *hmmm*

Is it possible that genetics weren't taken into account for this study ? Or what the mother ate ? Any supplements they took ? So many variables...I too would like to read that study. Do you suppose kellymom has it ?

[Seaweed]

I'll investigate further next time I talk to her. It is possibly a local one here. I know they did a study here which "proved" that bf babies had higher asthma rates than ff babies :eyeroll: I even had that one quoted at me by a woman at dd's playgroup who had had a c-sect & was mortified they needed her written permission to give her baby formula.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

My first was demand fed, and put on weight like anything. he also had "colic" for months.

When my second was born everything was fine until my milk came in, and then he too got "colic"... The midwife raised her eyebrows, and said, "You do realise that the size of a baby stomach is that of a largish apricot. Now how would you feel if someone required you to eat twenty courses one on top of the other?"

She explained to me that babies could be over fed, particularly in prodigious suppliers like me, which would result in several things in terms of the baby:

1) Not being able to sleep because of a too full and uncomfortable tummy.

2) Baby being diagnosed as colic and put on something like Merbentyl

3) Baby learning that life sucks, and becoming hard-wired to being tense, because they aren't relaxing right at the start of life.

for the mother she said...

1) Mother being frazzled because instead of waiting for the stomach to empty, she adds another ten courses on top, making the baby's stomach distend even more...

2) Mother needlessly being hungry, because of the amount of food required to produce a baby which poos bright yellow scrambled egg-poo-muck which goes in all directions: up the back, out the legs, and through to the front... :D.


She convinced me to:

Feed David for two minutes, then sit him up (whereupon he'd do a massive belch). Feed him another two minutes, then sit him up again (whereupon he'd do a smaller belch). Change him over to the second side, and feed him another two minutes, and that's it.

she said that after one and a half hours, if he made hungry noises, then feed him again, but only ever 6 minutes. At any one feed, that was the maximum time. David stopped getting colic, and didn't ask after 1.5 hours... He very quickly, put himself on a three hour sleep schedule, while I walked around looking like a stretched Freisian.

Even worse, he decided to have a five hour sleep in the afternoon, which meant that after 3 hours, I'd have a shower, and let the excess drain off under the hot water.

Within a month, my breasts felt so floppy compared with Ian; my supply had knocked right back, at which point she said, "NOW, you can feed him however long he likes, SO LONG AS he doesn't have yellow scrambled egg nappies, or signs of colic. If he does, it's back on the 6 minute schedule.

Breastfed babies nappies, according to Joan Donley, should be a brown mustard stain, with a few scattered light yellow curds, and that's it. And I know she was right. Peter was the nappy washer though, and he constantly complained that Ian's nappies had been so much easier to get bright yellow slime off, than david's mustard smears...

Oh, and La Leche League at the time were USELESS. "You can't overfeed a breast feed baby." Well, I'm living proof that you can. And they'd whine, "but he won't get the hind milk."

You don't say something like that to an ex dairy herd tester. I had my milk tested on both sides, and found that hind milk with me, mixed on both sides, and in the second two minutes the fat content was quite high... the fat was there in the first two minutes of the second breast as well... because the let down worked simultaneously on both sides and had obviously mixed because I stopped it from leaking out.

when I had been a dairy herd tester, I tested both foremilk (without a let down, manually expressed) and hind milk left after a full feed. The fat content was quite different. But I also didn't realise that that's an "artificial" method of doing it...

Anyway, I decided since David was putting on more than enough weight every week, that any whines by La Leche were irrelevant.

I realise that she is right.

How many mothers realise that a baby's stomach is the size of an apricot? In Middlemore Hospital, when I was expressing during a feed, I would produce from one side, over 100 mls. (To be precise, one and a half U-bags....) How do mothers logically rationalise that 200+ mls in one feed will actually fit into a size of an apricot?

Little wonder so many babies have totally distended stomachs!

Once we got shot of the distended stomach, and "colic", David slept well.

I just wish I'd not been so stupid with Ian. I often think back and wonder why I never worked that out, but at the time, I was breastfeeding amongst a sea of formula, so it was pretty much uncharted territory in the community I lived in.

Looking in his plunket book, it was when the bright yellow omelettes stopped and the mustard started (attributed by the plunket nurse to feeding him pureed pumpkin...) that Ian started to sleep a bit better during the day.

I was just so dense.....

[MinorityView]

That is so interesting! Joan didn't have colic, but she did have those huge bright yellow poops. I think I produced milk the same way you did. And there were no lactation consultants in those days, I just had to figure it out on my own. What made it worse was her extreme desire to suck. Once she found her thumb, one set of problems were solved and then we started on another set.

[3monkeys]

That is interesting.

When I did antenatal class the teacher showed us a card board cut out that fit neatly in the palm of our hands. Turned out it was a newborns stomach. I never forgot it and was really aware of that when I was feeding my children. My oldest DD had that sucking desire as well and found her wrist. She still sucks it as a 5 year old. My son also wanted to suck suck suck. I could have so easily put him on the breast for long periods but I didnt because my husband went to sea and I had a 2 year old to look after as well so that wasnt going to happen. My DD2 has been a dream to feed and always so incredibly easy in that respect. Thank goodness cause my husband went to sea for a month when she was 7 days old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its also interesting re the hind milk. I know so many people that worry about the hind milk. When I had Kate and she didnt want to feed forever like the other 2 did it worried me as well, but when she grew into a little porkchop I figured that whatever was happening was happening right even if it was only 5 minutes.

[Lexie]

That reminds me of a conversation I had with the dietician at the local WIC office. She was amazed that my DD was slim because, according to her, breastfed babies are fat. I had always read exactly the opposite, so I responded with shock. Then she told me not to worry because if she's not fat now she will be later. I wasn't really sure how to take that, so I didn't respond at all. :confused:

Oh, for the record, we change sides very frequently and she has always been in the 10th percentile.

[ema-adama]

Wow, that is so interesting about the breastfeeding for short periods. My son had colic (well very unsettled/unhappy baby - I never took him to the doctor as I was sure they wouldn't be able to help) and he was unhappy for 16 weeks. He aslo had bright yellow poo's and was no doubt being way overfed.... hmmm, I am in the process of becoming a LLL leader. This is very confusing.

When Hillel was little, I was worried I was overfeeding him, but just decided that he must be able to regulate and that feeding on demand got my milk supply established and he was no doubt uncomfortable because of something in my milk - nothing that I could identify. I drank copious amounts of fennel tea and gave him sips of chamomile tea....

I will have to think about this for the next time I have a newborn. It makes sense to not overfeed.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

with most women, when milk comes in there is far more than any baby needs. I think part of the reason for that is to account for twins if there are two, but also.. it takes a while for the mother to get the knack of breastfeeding, and both my babies were different feeders. The first was a voracious vacuum cleaner and the second was gentle tea and tiny cakes imbiber, with nothing like the rampant suction of the first. For me at any rate, the ample supply at the start gave me a chance to work out need, and then "down-size" my production to fit the need. After that, I could feed for any length of time, and it was up to the baby to dictate the increases, and me to be sensitive to that, and recognise the growth spurts...

I don't think that babies do regulate their intake right at the beginning..., particularly if they have to contend with a let down that just never stops. I also know many adults who don't know when to stop eating either.

In terms of the two children, our oldest is only just starting to learn to self-regulate his intake. Fortunately his job is demanding and so he needs to eat a lot, but he is mindful that there will come a time when he has to stop eating as much as he does now. he's only had to self regulate, because he needed to lose 6 kgs. So he's learning.

On the other hand, the younger one has always been an automatic self regulator, and I think that's because he's never had his stomach limits pushed too far.

From my perspective, overfeeding is far too easy. It's easy to regulate by watching timing, seeing the slow down when the stomach is full, and watching the nappies. Any bright yellow scrambled egg is a grossly overfed breastfed baby.

I'm not a fan of changing side frequently once supply has been balanced with need, because the fat, (like cows) is the last tenth of breastmilk in that breast. It is very important for supply and full neonatal nutrition to empty each side right out. So I only changed sides during a feed, once I knew the first side was right emptied out.

[gilima]

actually we call that "block feeding" and I often recomend it to new mothers. It also helps with gassiness and colic etc; since if you continuously switch from side to side baby keeps on getting the foremilk.
So we recomend feeding from one side each time baby nurses for about 3-4 hours and then change. some women do longer , whatever works.:D

[ema-adama]

I forgot the specifics of this thread, and have a two week old baby with bright yellow poops and very gassy at night = one exhausted mother.

Gonna do the block feeding and see if that helps her settle (thankfully she is not screaming like my son did, but she is gassy and moans her discomfort).

[ema-adama]

A quick question - what if baby wants to suck more than 6 minutes a feed?

I have in the back of my mind that the first 6-8 weeks are about establishing supply - and sucking on anything other than the breast is not a good idea. We have given her a pinky finger on occasion - although I am highly ambivalent about that. However, she is soothed when she sucks (as most babies are ;) )

Argh. I am so confused right now...

I know I have a forceful let down, as she often splutters and starts to choke. I am combining breastfeeding her in a semi upright position, with side lying in bed. And burping frequently.

[bbrandonsmom]

Arg, my post went away, stupid pc! So, quickly, I found this place helpful-also the forum there-
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/index.html
There is info on the first days, weeks, yellow poop, gassiness, milk production etc

We are off for story hour, but wanted to post this for you. Dr Sears also seems to have a good take on breastfeeding, if I remember right.

[ema-adama]

Yeah, Kellymom is my first stop for breastfeeding info

Doing the block feeding and she is a little less unsettled - poop still bright turmeric yellow.

[gilima]

I second the kellymom :) Also great links on there to dr. jack newman too. Block feeding was the only way I could nurse my babies in the begining. btw, she will probably get the hang of your let down as she grows a little, in the meantime you could express a little by hand as you get the let down and then put her back to the breast. I know, sounds good in theory right? I was never really able to do that, my babies would scream the minute the nipple would be removed from their mouth so soon, they just preferred to gulp away LOL. I didn't know that yellow color was not good. I thought yellow was the color baby poop is supposed to be?
I just think that many newborn babies will be a little gasssy etc; in the first few weeks till their system is acclimatized to life outside the womb and digesting etc; as long as it is just some mild gassiness it will probably pass.
Sometimes the info can be a bit confusing, I was a LLL for many years before having my last baby who was born with down syndrome and was a bit low tone at birth and therefore had a low suck and a lot of the info from LLL just didn't work..... a good friend of mine who is a LC and was a LLL for a while too really helped me and she told me to forget some of the things I had learned with LLL with regard to nipple confusion etc; I did what she told me.....I pumped and gave my baby breastmilk in a bottle in addition to suck training and nursing with and without a nipple shield and after 8-9 weeks he was able to nurse on his own!!!!!
I had tried the sns as per LLL and it just didn't work for us....
so what I'm trying to say is that sometimes you just have to find what works for you and your baby and it may not always be party line :)
Iam not trying to be negative about LLL at all, but sometimes there is more to nursing that they just won't acknowledge or whatever.....

[bbrandonsmom]

gilma, I agree w/ LLL. I've had both good and bad exp w/ them. My good friend is an LC and she's fantastic as a LC. On the other hand, I've talked with some local moms who tell me what their LC from LLL do and it seemed to completely undermine breastfeeding. Most of them are cesarean cases though.
I thought yellow poop was normal too-at least in the very beginning. Then once baby was a few weeks old, and digestion sorted itself out, poop turned into different breastfed poop. With ds2, he had that poop, same as his brother (different story), but it didn't last long. I don't there was any way he was overfed either. We had latch issues for at least 2 weeks-lazy latch, and he would basically only nurse for about 5-8min and be done. I was actually concerned he wasn't getting enough, because ds1 was such a boob baby, and liked to comfort nurse. He did comfort nurse at some point, but never as much as his brother. I feel like I screwed up somewhere with him. He started sucking his thumb around 6m, and I feel like it was related to him not comfort nursing?
Anyhow, I had strong let down too-both boys. The first few weeks both would unlatch by themselves, because they would start sputtering. I'd place a burp cloth against my chest to absorb the flow, until it slowed enough for them to latch back on. Not the nicest thing to have to do when dealing with latch issues. I know I switched sides in the very beginning, but after about 10 min on each side, which ds1 did not like, and for both boys, was actually more of a hassle with the latch problems. I think it only took about 2 weeks though for the kinks of flow to get worked out, and then it was a matter of recognizing growth spurts and stuff. We did do block feeding at various times.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

A quick question - what if baby wants to suck more than 6 minutes a feed?
Trial and error. That's what. Remember that the stomach is very small - size just larger than a golf ball. If your let down is a dribble then maybe 6 minutes isn't long enough, but if it's a New York fire hydrant, then perhaps 6 minutes is too long...


I have in the back of my mind that the first 6-8 weeks are about establishing supply - and sucking on anything other than the breast is not a good idea. We have given her a pinky finger on occasion - although I am highly ambivalent about that. However, she is soothed when she sucks (as most babies are ;) )
Yeah, but sucking and overloading the stomach will just make her want to suck more for "comfort".... again, use the nappies as a gauge. Once she gets the supply down to meet her stomach needs, there will be no need to worry.

Argh. I am so confused right now...

I know I have a forceful let down, as she often splutters and starts to choke. I am combining breastfeeding her in a semi upright position, with side lying in bed. And burping frequently. Then 6 minutes might be too long. Also, - and this might upset her - when your let down explodes, take her off, shut it down, and then let her suck once it's stopped. The milk will have backed up a bit and the next let down won't drown her.

[bbrandonsmom]

Getting any better?