My DS has measles

[stepmumand1]

DS1 (vaxed) who is 2 and bit years old, broke out in a rash this morning. After having a raging temperature since Thursday and 2 different Dr's saying it was an ear infection or an upper respiratory infection i took him to a 3rd Dr to confirm my suspicions.

The Dr has said it is ether measles or German measles. But can not be 100% certain without a blood test. I am not going to get a blood test done. It is my understanding that if a case of measles is found the GP have to report it to NSW health, is this correct?

What should I be giving him to support his system through this illness? Also my 9 month old unvaxed anything extra other then probiotics that should be offered.

thanks

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

What are his symptoms right now? I will stay online until you've answered, and I've put some stuff up....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I need to go to bed, but here are some pointers from Mark Stengler's book, "Your vital child" in terms of measles.

Much of this is common sense.

Fluids, water, berbal teas, diluted juices, soups and broths are all excellent.

I would add in, watery fruits like watermelon, honeydewmelon, pineapple, anything that is wet and slides down.

but if they don't want to eat, then just push fluids.

If photophobia, Vitamin A as in Cod Liver Oil. In well nourished children, small doses are quite adequate to replace the retinal vitamin A. My kids might get through the equivalent of a teaspoonful in a day, though the youngest would sometimes need more.

Mark Stenglers doses for vitamin C are the child's age in years, times 50 milligrams, twice daily. He suggests zinc supplements to support the immune system and enhance rash clearance, with dosages: chidren 2 and younger 5 milligrams, 2 and older 10 - 15 milligrams, to use for two weeks and then stop.



Herbal ideas:

Echinacea and goldenseal combination.

Licorice root as an antiviral and soothing to respiratory tract.

Osha root, helps relieves respiratory tract conjection.

Yarrow to reduce high fever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure the others might have other ideas.

I never went beyond fluids, fruit, low levels vitamin A and vitamin C if they wanted it, except with the younger one, who got an ear infection. But I didn't do much, because we were still breastfeeding, BOTH times that he got measles. Yes, they both got it twice.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I don't know about the reporting.. I do know that in UK, measles identification is via a mouth swab. Why NZ and Australia have to be so needle happy beats me.

[Spy]

Both measles and German measles (aka Rubella) are supposed to be notifiable diseases in Australia. Since your drs didn't confirm either, I guess whichever it is (if any), it will probably go unreported.

Just like our chickenpox which no doctor has ever seen. :giggle:

Hang on a bit. Rash after 4 days of high fever? Has he had roseola before and are there ANY other symptoms?

I honestly fail to see how can doctors confuse measles with rubella, the rashes are not even similar...:eyeroll: Roseola and rubella rashes ARE, however, very much alike.

[deesalie]

Don't forget tissue salts for immune support... Ferr Phos to be more exact.

[stepmumand1]

Sorry Momtezuma Tuatara I only just the computer back from DH. His symptoms now are rash with raised red spots and red skin behind it. Its all over him including his scalp. He has a sore throat and possibly mild light sensitivity (photo phobic). He is still quite worried about falling over after his temperature on the weekend he had no balance. He still looks like death warmed up but with energy now that the rash has appeared. His temp has settled down. Very infrequent urination but I think thats cause he hasn't had enough fluids. He isn't breastfeed unfortunately.

We are in Australia in NSW. I will contact AVN tomorrow and see about reporting it.

The Dr. ruled out roseola because he had sores in his mouth.

Thanks for the suggestions I'll start the vitamin A tomorrow and continue with the vitamin c powder and probiotics.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Okay, just check this thread, (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=301) and also check this one on rubella (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=68) because both measles and rubella have spots in the mouth, but they both look different.

A quote from the Rubella thread:
Palantine spots:

Soft palate spots vary with the disease with rubella showing pinpoint red spots on the soft palate; scarlet fever shows raised red spots, and English measles, Koplik’s spots which are red, with white “salt-grain middles”. but read both, so that you have a good feel for what both diseases present.

I'll do a more detailed post on measles later...

[Gitti]

With German measles the rash just gets lighter and then fades away.

With English measles a brownish tan remains on the skin for a while after the rash.

[stepmumand1]

So far DS2 hasn't had the extreme tempreture/fever that DS1 had but did have what we thought was a 'teething fever' on Monday last week. DS2 spots started on his back on Thursday. This to me is saying that he has already been infected and is further ahead in the stage of the illness then Ds1 who's spots/rash didn't show till Monday this week. DS2 hasn't had anything inside his mouth yet. But being fully breastfeed with my immunity (vaxed) would this mean he would expereince less of the disease/illness?

DS2 has moved on to sore rubbing eyes saying the light is to much. We are now living in a dungeon, except it is hot..draughts can apparently be bad news so house is in lockdown. A very knind womyn on another forum scanned 'raising a vaccine free child' measles section for me so that has helped get my head around it all.

Thank you Momtezuma Tuatara those threads were helpful. I'm still leaning towards measles as now we have light sensitivity.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I think with your second son, it's time to use vitamin A. You don't need to live in a dungeon. it's very important to have air flowing through. There is no need to pull the curtains either, because Cod Liver Oil gets rid of light sensitivity very fast. The lady who wrote 'raising a vaccine free child' believes measles is very dangerous, whereas I don't. She believes in the full monty, pull curtains, etc... I don't. it's just not necessary.

If you had natural measles before you were vaccinated, then you can pass on immunity but because you were vaccinated, and the vaccine makes a different sort of immunity, that immunity doesn't provide much protection, if any.

Both my children had light sensitivity with rubella, so that won't be the definitive answer. The type of rash will be.

symptoms between children can vary hugely. Our second had projectile vomitting and high temperatures, our first had lower temperature, but his measles lasted longer. It seemed that the lower the temperature the more drawn out the symptoms; the higher the temperature, the quicker it appeared to "burn through"... for lack of a better term.

[Spy]

You guys make me jealous...:drool:

[stepmumand1]

Momtezuma Tuatara the info you have provided has been awesome. DS1 has now got the brown skin where yesturday the redrash was. DS2 seems to be progressing through this more slowly then his older brother. Brought some CLO and DS1 took 1 tablet (yuck) and within 40mins his eyes were alot better. I didn't think measles was one to be feared and yoours and my expereince proves that it is just an illness.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

That is what I want this site to become eventually.... a place where parents can work these things out.

Wouldn't you THINK, though, that a doctor would be able to tell you how to differentiate the different rashes? Isn't that what they go to medical school to learn? It seems that the minute a new vaccine comes out all they think they need to know is that those diseases won't happen any more :p

Okay, now here's what I'd do now. If you have a camera with really good close up facilities, and your children will co-operate, you need to get them into good light, and take photos of the Koplik spots in the mouth of the younger one, by turning the bottom lip over, or trying for inside cheek. Not easy, but try. Also, photograph that brown stain, the measles rash in the younger one, and then photograph the normal skin in the same place in a couple of weeks. Try to use a neutral light both times, so as to "see" the stain well. Photography is a tricky thing with rashes.

Chickenpox and Mumps-lumps are dead easy to film. Measles and rubella not so.

But if they come out well, then it's an invaluable record. If they don't then you've just lost your time. Try to use a digital, and put it straight on the computer. That way you can keep trying, so long as the children don't mind, until you get it right.

If you get good photos, then great.

Yes, CLO doesn't taste like chocolate :D , but if they can down it with yoghurt and not crack it open with their teeth, that's the better way.

[stepmumand1]

Well I tried taking photos the children cooperated but my camera just wasn't fancy enough the skin just comes up in red blurry splotches.

Now DS1 is due to have another blood test (coags) to rule out certain conditions such as leukemia as a cause of undiagnosed bruising. Being vaxed would it be worth checking his immunity status to measles, mumps and rubella?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Undiagnosed bruising? You didn't mention that before. Does he have red gums? Do they bleed all the time when he cleans his teeth? If so the bruising just might be that he hasn't had enough vitamin C in his diet. What other symptoms would make him suspect leukaemia? Would a child with leukemia get over measles this easily???

You need to ask the doctor how long you have to wait after having had the measles for enough IgM or IgG antibodies to develop to be detected. Also, if it turns out that his measles antibodies are just low IgG (prior immunity) and no IgM (immediate immunity), they could simply say that that was vaccine immunity, and he had a "different" morbilli-like virus, given that there are lots of them.

There is also the aspect that just because a person doesn't have detectable antibodies doesn't mean they have no immunity.

I've had hepatitis B twice, and had antibodies for 13 years, but have no detectable antibodies now. BUT anyone who knows their immunology can tell you that there is no test for B-cell, or memory immunity, other than watching what happens to T-cell antibodies, after either an infection or a vaccine.

To me, any antibody tests have limited value. Yes, if the antibodies are there, you can say there is immunity. But if the antibodies aren't there, you can't say you don't have immunity. Many is the time people with "no" antibodies, show up what is called an anamnestic response... which means they did have immunity after all, but the medical profession isn't smart enough to be able to test for that, before the body proves it was immune after all.

[stepmumand1]

For about 4months DS1 has been getting bruises in weird places... back near his spine, top's of arms, bottom, near his belly button. There is no reason that these bruises should be there in my opinion. He is not with anyone else for them to be sinister. He is not clumsy and doesn't do rough play where he could hurt himself. His pain threshold has alwys been a concern it is very high. To the point where he jumped off a chair and smacked his head on to the tiles cried for 30sec and moved on playing. Recently he was jumping on the trampoline and 5mins after coming inside he had an egg on ethier side of his forehead. No idea how they got there. A little arnica cream and they disapperaed the next day.

I took him to the Drs on 5th Jan (before mealses) to get it investigated. The Dr reccomended blood tests (a full blood count, coags and a few other) to rule out hemrophillia and leukemia. I took him to have these done on the Wednesday 7th. The collectors were terrible only got enough to fill the other tests not the coags. So we were told to come back sometime soon. On the Thursday he had the fever and the mealses development with him and DS2 started.

I have booked into the Dr on the 23rd to speak to him about the other blood test and discuss the mealses thing with him. Sorry for the epic.

To answer q's: No bleeding when teeth cleaning, I think he has healthy gums, He should have enough vit C he is a very good eater, loves fruit and most veg, he takes a multivitamin, probiotic and fish oil capsule most days and during the sickness i was giving him 1/2 tsp of sodium ascorbate powder with OJ.


Would a child with leukemia get over measles this easily??? I wouldn't know but I don't think so.


To me, any antibody tests have limited value. Yes, if the antibodies are there, you can say there is immunity. But if the antibodies aren't there, you can't say you don't have immunity. Many is the time people with "no" antibodies, show up what is called an anamnestic response... which means they did have immunity after all, but the medical profession isn't smart enough to be able to test for that, before the body proves it was immune after all. So I shouldn't be worried about the other parts of the MMR vaccine not 'working' then?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Well, even if they haven't worked, supposedly, herd immunity will protect him. After all, isn't that the Amanda Peet argument? That we who don't vaccinate, are parasites relying on all those who did, to stop our children getting diseases? :p

If you did do the tests, and found there were limited antibodies, what would you do? Get more MMR booster shots? If the answer was no, then is there any need to know what his abs are? if the answer is yes, why would you do that? Particularly as he's just had measles and needs another measles shot like another hole in the head... :D