Vitamin C.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

This sticky will be for vitamin C in particular, and I'll try to pull all the posts elsewhere, into here as well.

Don't use Calcium ascorbate - ever. There are very good reasons why, not least of which is how it is metabolised in the body. Calcium Ascorbate is a no no. I learned the hard way. Brief description. In order to metabolise ascorbate, the Vitamin C needs a sodium ion. It splits into two compounds, one of which is used, the other excreted. The basic biochemical unit of the cell is the sodium ion.

If you use calcium ascorbate, the calcium sheers away, and sodium is pulled from the nearest cell with it in it. Once the ascorbate is split, the first thing it does is to chelate out the calcium, which should not be there. Then what you have left, is what is available. That is why you rarely get diarrhoea with calcium ascorbate. Because you have to use far more of it to do what sodium ascorbate does.

So how did ester C become supposedly the best. I don't know. I do know that hypercalcemia makes cancer cells grow like billie-oh...

Do not use Ascorbic Acid. Again, ascorbic acid requires sodium with which to split it into two compounds one of which is excreted, and one used. If you use anything other than sodium ascorbate for any length of time, the sodium balance in the cells gets severely disrupted, particularly in those who don't use much salt in their diet, and the immune system can crash.

if you must use ascorbic acid, buffer it with bicarbonate of soda. 1 heaped teaspoon of ascorbic acid to 2/3rd teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda. Leave it until all fizzing has gone, then drink.

Believe me or not, its your choice. But I know, because I learned from experience.

If you have enough sodium in your diet, your other alternatives would be magnesium ascorbate. Or you could try camu-camu. But biochemically it is best to provide vitamin direct to the body with the sodium ion, and that way, there is no faffing around by the body trying to find the ion needed to start the process of using the vitamin C.

If you have serious illness like pneumonia, the flu, serious whooping cough, and symptoms which appear to mimic the start of meningococcal disease which can also be confused with the flu, use a mix - a small amount of oral sodium ascorbate to keep the gut clean, but then chuck in lipospheric vitamin C to build up large concentrations in the blood so that any bacterial toxins can be neutralised over and above what is achieved by the kuppfer cells. If they become overloaded, the bacterial toxins break through into the blood and the best way to prevent problems is to use lipo....

for those looking at pneumonia, watch this TV3 programme about what happens when doctors give someone with pneumonia and hairy cell leukemia up for dead, and what happened when the family insisted on firstly, intravenous sodium ascorbate, and then when that was stopped went under the radar with lipospheric vitamin C:

http://www.3news.co.nz/Living-Proof-Vitamin-C---Miracle-Cure/tabid/371/articleID/171328/Default.aspx

Professor Harri Hemilla's website is just the best there is, so lets start with his urban legends http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/safety/ , since that is so often what doctors throw in your face when you dare to take more than their beloved RDA.

New Zealand sources of sodium ascorbate http://www.healthpost.co.nz/shopn/SP//pv=HPOST,pg=10713,sg=,co=VIC

Megavitafit http://www.vita-fit.co.nz/ to order you ring 0800-961-111.

John Appleton sells sodium ascorbate at 25.00 for 250 grams. http://www.john-appleton.co.nz/viewproduct.php?key=/All_products/Vitamin_C_Powder

He also sells Lipo-spheric vitamin C which can be absorbed directly through the mouth into the body, or in water on an empty stomach where it goes through the stomach wall, bypassing the small and large intestine, so under certain circumstances, that is a better option. But for any serious illness, always take a small amount orally to cover the gut.

It also requires less than sodium ascorbate and in critical situations can work better http://www.john-appleton.co.nz/viewproduct.php?key=/All_products/Vitamin_C_-_Lypo-Spheric but in situations where you also need the gut cleared of endotoxin using both is a more complete strategy.

Below is a brochure on lipo-spheric vitamin C and a letter which has some interesting technicalities in it. Placed here as educational aids only

[momofsaa]

The link doesn't work for me. Is it me or is it broken?

[Wonder-Full]

Works ok for me, try this...

http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/safety/

[3monkeys]

nothing to do with the actual using of Vit C but I have just brought some more from healthpost. http://www.healthpost.co.nz/shopn/SP/462646434.9806/pv=HPOST,pg=10713,sg=,co=VIC

Dont know if these are good prices or not but I have brought a few things from them and found them to be really good.

[Wonder-Full]

I use them as my first stop shop too and that's where I get my SA powder from.

[momofsaa]

My mom told me that it is wasteful to take more than 1200 mgs of vitamin c daily. She said this comes from the new TV series here in the states called "Doctors".
We often have different views on things but I thought it would be good to bring her some support for why I'm not willing to listen to the "Doctors".

[Niamh]

I buy my SA from Frontier Wholesale (http://www.frontiercoop.com/) products.
$16/lb - of 3,336mg per tsp.

[FrangipaniRose]

My mom told me that it is wasteful to take more than 1200 mgs of vitamin c daily. She said this comes from the new TV series here in the states called "Doctors".
We often have different views on things but I thought it would be good to bring her some support for why I'm not willing to listen to the "Doctors".

OT but this program has just started here in Aus - OMG it is scary!!

[magical1]

Your mum, momofsaa, hears on a TV programme that anymore than 1200mgs are wasteful and you want some comeback as to why THIS IS NOT THE CASE, in anything other than preventing scurvy.... hope I can help you a wee bit.

I'm not going to give you the whole speech as to the history, the hidden studies etc. I will however give you some good links to send you on your own research quest so you can become versed yourself. Needless to say the "doctors" are wrong at therapuetic levels. From here do your own searches... best way to educate yourself to pass info onto others.

http://www.doctoryourself.com/ascorbate.html

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n01.shtml

Good luck.

[Tici]

How much Vit C should we be taking a day ?

I'm breastfeeding my 1 year old , does it get passed through to her ?

I take the little orange tablets made by HERRON, are they useless ?

Should I be buying the powder form from the health food shop ?

Sorry, so many questions :o

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

How much Vit C should we be taking a day ? That depends on your immune system, your diet, your size, and the type of vitamin C you are considering using.


I'm breastfeeding my 1 year old , does it get passed through to her ? Only a certain amount will, and if you aren't taking enough for your own complete needs, nothing will.


I take the little orange tablets made by HERRON, are they useless ?Pass. i've no idea what is in them. Can you put up a link to the label or list the ingredients please?


Should I be buying the powder form from the health food shop ?

Sorry, so many questions :oI don't get mine from a health food shop. Pass :D

[Tici]

Ingredients:
Ascorbic acid
Sodium ascorbate
Together equivalent to 500mg Vitamin C

MT, do you get yours from those links you put up in previous post ?

How does one assess there own immune system ? On how often you get sick ?
I have a mostly healthy diet , weigh 60 kilos.
Would love some info on what type of Vit C I should take.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

the links in the first post are the applicable ones. I get mine from Vitafit, and lipo I will be getting from John Appleton.

I know my own immune system, after 25 years of working with it. Now? Hardly ever...

The only three types of vitamin C I would recommend would be sodium ascorbate, or magnesium ascorbate (depending on the situation) with bioflavinoids, and lipo-spheric vitamin C, for reasons explained elsewhere...

But what you take is your choice.

[Tici]

Does anyone know where I can purchase some sodium ascorbate in Sydney ? Either online or by shop ?

[deesalie]

MT- have you got any scientific info as to why sodium ascorbate is the preferred option?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

No. It's been explained to me by doctors and scientists who went from being mainstream doctors but regressed to "the dark side" :p

All the old literature, as in Frederick Klenner's papers etc... they used sodium ascorbate and stated that in their clinical experience, that was the most effective, with the least biochemical disruption.

One of them did send me stuff on why not to use calcium ascorbate, including some stuff on the calcium ion causing malignant cells to multiply more rapidly..

Given that the medical profession en masse is so anti vitamin C, I can't imagine they would "waste" good research money working out which was the most effective, or why calcium ascorbate is disastrous for some people. But there is research being done on what they do know, like this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19162177? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19162177)

There hasn't been much comparative study done in the alternative field, with just about every company touting their own as the most effective.

If you read Steve Hickey's book called Vitamin C, the Real Story, he doesn't think much of any of them, except straight ascorbic acid, implying on page 52, that none of the mineral ascorbates do what ascorbic acid does, because people taking them "never get to bowel tolerance". That's strange, because 15 grams is all it takes to get me to bowel tolerance..... he also debunks the natural versus artifial debate, and that's a discussion worth reading...

He criticises sodium ascorbate on the basis that if you are taking huge doses for a long time, you will ingest a lot of sodium. Yet, he doesn't mention that ascorbic acid requires that sodium to split. ( I do have a medical article on that somewhere...) And.... so much of his book uses the research of people who stated in print, that they only use sodium ascorbate... so sometimes I'm left scratching my head with regard to him, but then, I remember Linus Pauling always said, "Never put your trust in anything but your own intellect.. always think for yourself." That's very true. So what I've done is read everything I can get my hands on, and made up my own mind.

I've tried most forms of vitamin C, and sodium ascorbate works best for me, but I may change to liposomal vitamin C at certain times.

I like Steme Hickey's books, and have the other one called Ascorbate, The Science of Vitamin C. Actually, I have just about every important book ever written on vitamin C.

I've met so many people who have had no results with calcium ascorbate, but good result with SA. A lot of people find that they can't manage ascorbic acid on it's own, and I'm one of them....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

If you read this (https://www46.safesecureweb.com/positivehealth/permit/Articles/Nutrition/vitc11.htm) you will see what I mean. Why was there no comparison done with sodium ascorbate?

You might also want to read chapter 3 which has some spurious remarks... as Steve Hickey says... vitamin C as a molecule, is identical, whether from nature or manufacture. In fact, Ester RC has some components with it, that natural or other vitamin C doesn't. Whether that's good or bad, is debateable, and I guess, depends on the hand which feeds you.

[Tici]

:) My packet of SA says ; take 1-3 grams .. So Ive been taking 2 grams in a glass of freshly squeezed juice.

Is this nearly enough ? I know it depends on my health etc , and I'm sorry if it's already written somewhere here but I'm really stuck on how much I should be taking in order for it to be effective for me for general health and wellbeing?

[momofsaa]

I wanted to take a moment to share my recent Vitamin C experience. Because I'm nursing and my child receives frequent blood transfusions causing an iron overload, I've opted out of taking additional Vitamin C for now.
For many reasons, I have not been sick in over a year. Recently there was some kind of funk going around the family. It was something respiratory with a cough, sniffles, and a sore throat. My three year old had it and by chance she found the baby Vitamin C bottle and since she likes them so much she ate half the bottle. Her cough was GONE. I've already been pretty sold on the use of Vitamin C but had not had the opportunity to be so impressed at it's power. Three of my other children started with symptoms and only one of them did as I told them and took their Vitamin C regularly, he cleared up nearly as quickly as my daughter.
When it hit me it hit me pretty hard. I hadn't been sick in so long and was resisting the Vitamin C because of the baby. This wasn't long after I read about Hilary taking (I think) Mag and Vitamin C like others take Ibuprofen. So, I took 200 mg every time I felt that cough was more than a small itch that one cough would take care of. The first day I took 1200 mg, the second 800 mg, where I think I stayed for 2 days. And then it was GONE.

Any doubt I had about Vitamin C, which I'm not sure there was much if any, is non-existent.

[Tici]

Well I took 8 grams of SA and was on the toilet all night :giggle:

So I think i'll just take 4-5 grams tonight. See how I go. :p

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

finding your level of vitamin C goes like this. Error, and retrial :p

[Tici]

Do you take it everyday MT ?

[sarahmck]

Someone just posted a new entry to the giant SA thread over on MDC. She included a question that intrigued me:


"Next, I recall MT saying that if she feels an illness coming on , she waits to see if it's mucosal, a cold, or not. If it's NOT a cold, she loads on the extra SA, but if it IS a cld she backs off on the SA until it's finished in her system.


Why? Is this a practice that makes sense, in your understanding of SA?"

MT, would you address this?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yse, because with my immune system, if I use vitamin C in the early stages, it sits there, stalls, hangs around, and is a pain in the nose. So I take nothing until the green mucus stage, then the vitamin C thins the mucus and kicks out the cold double quick.

Learned by error, error, more error, and retrial. Actually my oldest son spotted it first. We were in the South Island on holiday, and everyone else had had a cold but I had not, and then when I did, I took lots of vitamin c, felt blah, and it hung around. the oldest said, "Stop taking it, and let it get going, and then take it" (which is what they do) so I did, and it worked.

After that, I experimented with colds when they came, kept a diary and found for me, that taking vitamin C at the stage where it's gone beyond the pre pre cold stage, is pointless.

For me.

[Missys]

This is a question that ive been meaning to ask since the whooping cough incident. We gradually lowered the Vit C dose all the kids were taking, and then stopped. Do you take Vit C every day or just when ill?

[gilima]

I also have a question. we take the bronson lab SA. 2 of my little ones don't react well to corn and since the SA is corn based I was wondering if this could be a problem. I called bronson and they said that by the time it is a finnished product their is no corn in it. any other reason for getting diaper rash from SA ( maybe it is not the SA) and my other lo gets gas:giggle: is it since they are "nearing" bowel tolerence????

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Missys. I take vitamin C every day (when I remember) because I have to. My husband does, because he wants to. Our oldest takes 1,500 mg a day, and the younger not until I tell him. How can I tell he needs it? His gums start going red in colour - sure sign.

Ideally, if you eat enough home grown fresh raw fruits and vegetables you won't need much in the way of supplemental vitamin C at all. Unless you have an immunodeficiency like I do :D

Gilima, gas is "nearing bowel tolerance".

Some babies get rash, and there are various theories about that. Some say, it tips their body into an acid state, others just don't know. I know when I was breastfeeding my youngest, I had to be careful how much I took or his bottom would get a red tinge.

On the other hand, some people who don't use nappies at all, don't have that problem.

[ZGT Mummy]

Does anyone know where I can get SA that is guaranteed allergen free? Also free of allergen cross-contamination. I have some SA but don't know how safe it is and DS2 is starting to cough incessantly.....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

You'd need to ring whoever the supplier is and ask them that question.

[ema-adama]

Ok, I think I understand why SA is preferred - sodium is recquired for the metabolism of AA.

As I only have AA available, how can I assess if it is not agreeing with me?

I also have another question about vit C in general. I have noticed than when I take upward of 5g a day I get blind pimples. I overhead a woman talking about this in the health shop, that she also gets blind pimples when she takes higher doses and the shop owner told her to cut down - that it was her bodies way of telling her that she was taking too much.
So, I want to know if anyone has read/heard anything about this. Would it make a difference what kind of vit C was being used? Would it make a difference how 'toxic' the person is, ie the vit C starts to get nasties moving and the skin is eliminating them?

[Wonder-Full]

I don't really have a lot of knowledge here, but I would have thought that the blind pimples were actually a positive reaction and that yes the skin was eliminating toxins - a healing crisis (which is a good thing). I have been doing a lot of herbal reading and that is how the detoxing herbs work, so wonder if it also holds true for Vit C...drinking lots of water would probably help flush stuff out if that is what is going on.

[ema-adama]

I'm not concerned about detoxing , except that I am still breastfeeding, and I would say DS gets up to 50% of his nutrition from breastmilk. I don't know if this is a concern or not, but I guess it might not be such a good idea to detox when breastfeeding?

I'll up my water - it's really hot here as well. I am probably not drinking enough.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Ok, I think I understand why SA is preferred - sodium is recquired for the metabolism of AA.

As I only have AA available, how can I assess if it is not agreeing with me?I'm not sure if it's a case of that. AA is very acid. that's all. but if you have enough salt in your diet, then that would be okay.




I also have another question about vit C in general. I have noticed than when I take upward of 5g a day I get blind pimples. I overhead a woman talking about this in the health shop, that she also gets blind pimples when she takes higher doses and the shop owner told her to cut down - that it was her bodies way of telling her that she was taking too much.
So, I want to know if anyone has read/heard anything about this. Would it make a difference what kind of vit C was being used? Would it make a difference how 'toxic' the person is, ie the vit C starts to get nasties moving and the skin is eliminating them?

what's a blind pimple? This is new to me.

[ema-adama]

It's like a pimple, red, swollen and tender to the touch, but it doesn't have a head. After some days it develops a head.... rather gross. Sorry :giggle:

I get them along my jaw line. Which I have read of happening to someone else.... which made me wonder what is so special about the jaw line?

After my mother died I got lots of large pimples on my leg and I was taking 5+ grams a day as I was in SA winter and under a fair bit of stress..... I didn't actually make the connection until I overheard the other woman in the health shop. A lightbulb went on for me. I stopped the vit C (I only had esther C then) and the pimples went away. Weird

[Seaweed]

Not sure if this is relevant but I take vit C at night. It's never given me blind pimples but recently I have started to get a craving for eating the inside of the orange peels. Maybe it would help if you mixed biflavoids with it?

[magical1]

Blind pimples are cystic acne... a sign of inflammation issues as far as I am concerned. The pore becomes inflamed but doesn't get infection. If they are around your jaw then this is above lymph nodes?

I get really bad cystic acne on my back... or have suffered from it my whole life. My parents had me on antibiotics for four years from age 13-17! I think zinc/vitamin C and a good clean diet oh and probiotics seems to help not make them occur. I get the odd one but then if I am good enough not to be tempted to fiddle with them they go pretty fast.... Lavender oil is a beaut topical solution for them. Oh and sesame oil is really good if you get them early.

If things (toxins) are moving out through the skin then doesn't that mean that your liver isn't working properly?

[ema-adama]

I eat red and yellow peppers most days? Would that be giving me bioflavonoids, enough bioflavonoids? Citrus isn't yet in season here - although I do put lemon into my water kefir.

Funny about the inside of citrus - since I was a child I have always carefully peeled it off. Never liked it.

Is there some way to add them to my vit C powder?

[Wonder-Full]

hmmmm, I get the blind pimples around my jaw and the surrounding skin too - but I'm not taking Vit C but might start and see what happens. I have always suspected some sort of lymph thing (I get sinus congestion/post-nasal drip and very unscienfifically linked it to that).

[magical1]

If you want home made bioflavanoids you just need to get the orange or lemon and peel off the peel and then cut with a very sharp knife, or if it willing to be peeled straight off the white.... then put the whites on a handy towel in a dry warm place. A couple of days later they should be dry enough to put through a coffee grinder. Then you can use this powder in smoothies or whatever you like really.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

for those of you who know anything about iridology, then to tell is you have lyphatic congestion is relatively easy. You look in your eyes, andyou can see white dots which are on the outside of the iris.

Put these words into google images lymphatic rosary in eye and have a look at what comes up.

[Nirvana]

I found a local store that sells AA powder but no SA powder. I was wondering if I add baking soda to the AA powder and try it is it as good as SA?

This store also has SA+AA tablets alongwith bioflavonoids but I know tablets are not much help so shall I go ahead and try the AA?

Also not sure how much baking soda to add to the AA powder. But I REALLY NEED to get DD off those chewable vitamin C that she's hooked on to.

I think one of her tooth is already getting damaged :(

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

What is the exchange rate like for buying overseas? When there is no SA here, I order from Bronsons USA I normally buy 51B http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/51B/vitamin-c-crystals

[justine]

I get my SA from www.Healthpost.co.nz (http://www.Healthpost.co.nz) I get 500g for $41.00 you can get 1kg for $73.00. They are very quick and cheap to deliver.

[ema-adama]

I noticed that in your news item about the flu, it was not entirely clear that the dramatic effects are always with ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally. Mineral ascorbates are fine forms of vitamin C but when you are really sick, the mitochondria are failing in their refueling of the free radical scavengers with electrons. The ascorbic acid carries 2 extra electrons per molecule where the mineral ascorbates seem to carry only one (plus per molecule the mineral ascorbates are heavier due to the mineral weighing more than the hydrogen the mineral replaces). So the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to accomplish the ascorbate effect. There may be other reasons that we do not appreciate additionally. See http://www.orthomed.com/avian.htm (http://www.orthomed.com/avian.htm)


- Robert Cathcart, MD
Does this make sense about AA by mouth and SA intravenously?

I have read that it is 2 parts AA to 1 part bicarbonate of soda.

What is the issue with alumiunium in bicarbonate of soda? Is it in all forms of bicarb?

[ema-adama]

Duh, sorry about that. Aluminium is in baking powder, not baking soda... :o

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I've not read that before about AA. Everything Frederick Klenner did was with SA. If what Cathcart is saying then how did Klenner get the results he got?

[ema-adama]

MT, can you point me in a good direction to read about Frederick Klenner? (preferably online)

I have to say that it sounded plausible that the body makes SA from AA and that ingesting AA might have a benefit over ingesting SA.... but that is not at all scientific :p It has got me thinking about sodium being required to metabolise AA and make SA and wondering if there is something in letting the body makes it own SA.

[Nirvana]

I just did what I should have done one year back. I ordered item 51B from Bronsons :D

So excited!!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/

And put these words into google sodium ascorbate "Frederick Klenner" and have a read :D

[Nirvana]

Thanks Hilary! Even after reading that monster of a thread at MDC I still have no clue how do I go around starting SA for my family. Guess I have time to read until it arrives.

BTW I also ordered Curing the Incurable by Thomas Levy! I hope it's as good as it sounds.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

You experiment.

If they are mildly sick, you start with a dose of 150 mg per kg of body weight, and work up until they start to get diarrhoea.

That will teach you what a mild infection might use up.

More serious infections, and chronic disorders, use up a lot more.

For every day needs, I need about 5 - 8 grams. That has been worked out from trial and error. DH needs about 2.5 grams. If he had what I had, he'd be on the loo with montezuma's revenge.

[Nirvana]

The vitamin C arrived today! :D

According to 150mg/kg body weight, DH requires around 13 gm and DD requires around 2 gm.

There's a small scoop spoon provided but no measures printed. So how do I calculate how much to give at a time?

[Nirvana]

Nevermind. The small scoop is equivalent to 1000 mg. :o

Hilary, how come your DH has such a low requirement for Vitamin C?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Because he eats more fruit than 10 monkeys joined together, and has the constitution of an ox.

The 150 mg/kg body weight is the starting point when someone is sick . it's not your every day bolus dose.

[Nirvana]

I have not yet ordered any bioflavonoids and in Optimal Health through Optimal nutrition it is said that there have been no studies done on taking huge amounts of bioflavonoids alongwith Vitamin C.

Is it OK if we just included lots of citrus fruits for the bioflavonoids in our diet and the SA only in terms of illness? I know everyone is different and there's no hard and fast rule for all. But I am not sure I want my family to be on SA daily.

Also Hilary, the bronson SA contains AA too alongwith SA. Is that ok? I was thinking it would be only SA but I realized after ordering that it contains both.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Well, there have been very few "real" studies done on vitamin C either. All the studies looking at bioflavinoids etc, were observational case studies. The sort of thing which is now considered anecdotal and therefore unreliable. Bit of a joke, when most "treatments" for most things owe their functional understanding to "anecdote".

[ZGT Mummy]

OK so here's my question. In terms of bowel tolerance, is that based on a single dose or the total of all doses administered during the day? For instance if I take a single dose of 3g then I've gone too far, but if I split the doses up I can take upwards of 4g a day with no issues. What is the correct way of working out bowel tolerance levels?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Basically, yes :D So five grams over a day doesn't create diarrhoea. it's about right for me on a good day. On a really bad day, if I have to travel to Auckland, then I can take over 25 grams and have nothing happen, because stress just chews up vitamin C, in me, like breathing air.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

There are some people who say that all vitamin C is made from genetically engineered corn. Megavitafit say it's isn't, but I'm not so sure. Anyway... if you have concerns about that, you can always make your own:

http://mizar5.com/Make_Your_Own_Vitamin_C.html

[bbrandonsmom]

MT-I just want to clarify-
150mg per kg of weight for a mild cold/illness. Is that for both child and adult?
.5-1g for healthy child and 2-3g for healthy adult based on tolerance?
Those with immune problems will prob be able to tolerate more on a daily basis?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

that's only your starting dose, so you work up from there, and 'discover' what that child's bowel tolerance levels are.

Everyone, even normal people, have differing requirements, - I think determined by their personality (A types always need more) and their immune systems, as you say.

there are no set rules.

[gilima]

I also use the bronson labs and am fine with it. I did have some concerns about the corn, have to kids who react to corn, but they are fine with the SA and I have spoken to someone at bronson about it before and their opinion is that by the time we get it it contains trace amounts of corn.......

[bbrandonsmom]

Anyone know a good place to purchase in bulk for US? I haven't found a local place yet that has it. Everyone local wants to know why I want SA, not AA. I should start making up flyers to hand to the store owners :)

[TanyaL]

bbrandonsmom--in the USA? Lately I've been buying from luckyvitamin.com, but to find them I googled Now Foods sodium ascorbate 3 pounds, and then I did a bit of looking around and eliminated the cheapest place I found based on so many customer service issues (that was a while ago, no idea what the name of the company was). I've ordered other places, basically if it's a company I haven't dealt with before, I poke around a bit to make sure that they have reasonable customer service, but after that--it's the same product everyone else is selling.

[ema-adama]

Changing the topic a bit.

Has anyone else noticed that taking vit C in the evening disturbs their sleep?

I forgot to take mine for a couple of evenings and I had brilliant sleep. Last night I remembered and I was up and down all through the night. It could be coincidental of course (I am pregnant and often have to wee).

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

No, I've not noticed that. I'll experiment and see.

[ema-adama]

Nope, I didn't take it last night and I still had a disturbed night. Not as disturbed as the previous two, but not the long uninterrupted sleep I am craving.

[Seaweed]

I have noticed if I don't take SA before bed I feel alot worse when I get up. I don't really sleep very heavily as I spent way too many years being woken constantly by small children so I never get that falling asleep thing & waking up when it is daylight.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

When I was pregnant, I never slept properly, particularly with David. He'd wake me up at 1.00 a.m. and play skipping with the umbilical cord, and flying trapeze off my ribs. I'd embroider until 3.00 at which point, he'd keel over with exhaustion and I'd go back to bed.

He had the same wake hours at night, as a baby too. He was just wired that way.

[ema-adama]

I remember reading something a long long time ago about the liver being most active in the early hours of the morning. I know that vit C has a crucial role to play in detox and was wondering if a dose in the evening kinda pushed the liver a bit harder.... a bit of a stretch as far as a hypothesis goes.

[bbrandonsmom]

? Will have to try this. Aren't you supposed to span out the dose through out the day, which would mean having some before bed? It makes sense to me, because though you are asleep, that's still a huge part of a day which your body would utilize the SA, right?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I remember reading something a long long time ago about the liver being most active in the early hours of the morning. I know that vit C has a crucial role to play in detox and was wondering if a dose in the evening kinda pushed the liver a bit harder.... a bit of a stretch as far as a hypothesis goes.
first, it depends what you're expecting your liver to cope with.

I don't eat after 6 at night, so by the time I go to bed, my stomach is empty and the liver has done most of the work it needs to. The liver shuts down around 10 in the evening anyway... Clue. If you wake up with a coated tongue and lousy taste in your mouth, you know that your liver is not happy, and you ate too late at night.

(One of the reasons a lot of elderly people die early in the night is that they eat heavy proteins too soon before they go to bed, and the liver doesn't want to deal with it, so they end up dying of endotoxic shock.)

I have various rules my body sets for me which are:

1) Only eat when I ask to be fed.
2) No grains.
3) "heavy" food in the middle of the day.
4) very small meal at 5.30, is the last meal of the day.

In terms of vitamin C, I take my last dose at 10 p.m. I take both lipo and sodium ascorbate. With the liver having done it's main work in the middle of the day, and with me also using various herbal teas to help stay "clean", the function - as my rationale works it - for vitamin C at night is primarily to help the inate immune system ramp up and work effectively. the night is the "healing" time. that's why I structure my day to allow the nights to be most effective.

I can't afford not to, with an immunodeficiency.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

when I was pregnant, I took quite a bit of vitamin C, and functioned on instinct, because my body set different rules. for instance, I would often be driven to get up in the middle of the night to eat fruit or yoghurt, which under normal circumstances I'd not dream of doing.

When I was pregnant, my key heavy food was buckwheat pancakes. Nothing else would do. Other than that, lots of fruit and vegetables, eggs, chicken, fish, some cheese and lots of water in small amounts, well away from food times.

and if anyone cooked onions, or cabbage near me, they would be cleaning the floor.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

? Will have to try this. Aren't you supposed to span out the dose through out the day, which would mean having some before bed? It makes sense to me, because though you are asleep, that's still a huge part of a day which your body would utilize the SA, right?

Half of my daily dose is taken at night.

[bbrandonsmom]

That's what I thought. I'm going through Dr Levy's Vit C book now and he suggests to break up the bt dose through the day. So I took it as when you find your bt, then split it up in 2-3 doses?

[ema-adama]

first, it depends what you're expecting your liver to cope with.

I don't eat after 6 at night, so by the time I go to bed, my stomach is empty and the liver has done most of the work it needs to. The liver shuts down around 10 in the evening anyway... Clue. If you wake up with a coated tongue and lousy taste in your mouth, you know that your liver is not happy, and you ate too late at night.

(One of the reasons a lot of elderly people die early in the night is that they eat heavy proteins too soon before they go to bed, and the liver doesn't want to deal with it, so they end up dying of endotoxic shock.)

I have various rules my body sets for me which are:

1) Only eat when I ask to be fed.
2) No grains.
3) "heavy" food in the middle of the day.
4) very small meal at 5.30, is the last meal of the day.

In terms of vitamin C, I take my last dose at 10 p.m. I take both lipo and sodium ascorbate. With the liver having done it's main work in the middle of the day, and with me also using various herbal teas to help stay "clean", the function - as my rationale works it - for vitamin C at night is primarily to help the inate immune system ramp up and work effectively. the night is the "healing" time. that's why I structure my day to allow the nights to be most effective.

I can't afford not to, with an immunodeficiency.

That was a very helpful post for me. Thank you.

I have been splitting up vit C with each meal, and taking most of my supplements in the morning.

I do eat later at night, our supper is at 6:30pm.

I'm slowly getting the hang of this......

[ema-adama]

when I was pregnant, I took quite a bit of vitamin C, and functioned on instinct, because my body set different rules. for instance, I would often be driven to get up in the middle of the night to eat fruit or yoghurt, which under normal circumstances I'd not dream of doing.

When I was pregnant, my key heavy food was buckwheat pancakes. Nothing else would do. Other than that, lots of fruit and vegetables, eggs, chicken, fish, some cheese and lots of water in small amounts, well away from food times.

and if anyone cooked onions, or cabbage near me, they would be cleaning the floor.

I oddly love cabbage, onions, garlic, ginger, chilli (think kimchi :D) I also am loving my yoghurt and berries. Not so much meat, I do eat some about once a week and also fish (a fair bit of salmon and sardines), but I just do not enjoy red meat at the moment, unless it is in a stew/soup. And one pomegranate a day. With my previous pregnancy I craved grapefruit - this one pomegranate.

Back to the vit C discussion.

[bbrandonsmom]

I may have missed this-but for those on diets restricted of Sodium, what can they do?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Why is the person on a diet restricted of sodium? that's impossible. Sodium CHLORIDE - yes, but since the pivotal cellular ion is sodium and all foods contain a certain amount naturally, to be on a sodium restricted diet makes no sense.

There is too, the mantra that says actual... natural... sodium is bad for you. Which is utter rubbish. Without it, we'd be dead.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I oddly love cabbage, onions, garlic, ginger, chilli (think kimchi :D) I also am loving my yoghurt and berries. Not so much meat, I do eat some about once a week and also fish (a fair bit of salmon and sardines), but I just do not enjoy red meat at the moment, unless it is in a stew/soup. And one pomegranate a day. With my previous pregnancy I craved grapefruit - this one pomegranate.

Back to the vit C discussion.

I'm sure bodies know what they are doing.

In my second pregnancy, the in utero master mind only called out for red meat when I had "morning sickness" and couldn't be sick, but needed to be. One mouthful of meat or cheese would guarantee a fast turnaround, quick empty out, and I'd feel way better.

[bbrandonsmom]

That's what I meant. And when you read food labels, they do not say Sodium Chloride, just "no sodium", or "low sodium", so which are they speaking of in food? Natural sodium?
I have to go search. I know I read some place about people on sodium restricted diets should not take SA. I prob got it confused w/ some hogwash info :)

[bbrandonsmom]

For gmo concerns, I found these people-http://www.iherb.com/NutriBiotic-Sodium-Ascorbate-Crystalline-Powder-16-oz-454-g/10178?at=0 Doesn't seem a bad price for 2#. I briefly looked under an SA search and there are some other brands there as well, and some other SA stuff.

[betach]

Wow. that price is fabulous! I usually get these cadillacs: http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/50B
is this price the regular price?? seems like I've been paying about 2/3 more!?

[betach]

btw, I just noticed that it seems that several people buy the 51B product from Bronson Labs.. I've been doing 50B- since that one has no ascorbic acid..
??
please share your opinions, understanding. thanks.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

The two look pretty much the same really... one has slightly less sodium.

[betach]

MT, which 'two' do you refer to?
the two products from bronson or bronson's product and iherb's product?
thanks for clarifying.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was referring to your comment about 51B and 50B, and stating the difference.

[Tici]

Hi all :)

whats the best book to read on Vit C ? I know it's mentioned here somewhere ...

[justine]

Bugger. Just bought Calcium ascorbate :-(. Oh well now I know.

[Paper Cut]

Can anyone pretty please point me towards some reading that gives an actual SAFE dose of SA for during pregnancy? All I can find are the usual scare tactics of it causing miscarriage. Even my big thick book "Ascorbate" does not give any guide lines for pregnancy. Am I safe to use 150mg/kg any ideas? I have horribly blocked ears due to the pregnancy as well and hopping like heck that some big doses of SA will ease the inflammation in my Eustachian tubes or I wont survive the next 6 months!

EDIT - I'm such a NUB! I've found it in the 1971 Klenner paper.


Primary and lasting benefits in pregnancy.
Observations made on over 300 consecutive obstetrical cases using supplemental ascorbic acid, by mouth, convinced me that failure to use this agent in sufficient amounts in pregnancy borders on malpractice. The lowest amount of ascorbic acid used was 4 grams and the highest amount 15 grams each day. (Remember the rat-no stress manufactures equivalent "C" up to 4 grams and with stress up to 15.2 grams). Requirements were roughly 4 grams first trimester, 6 grams second trimester and 10 grams third trimester. Approximately 20 percent required 15 grams, each day, during last trimester. Eighty percent of this series received a booster injection of 10 grams, intravenously, on admission to the hospital. Hemoglobin levels were much easier to maintain. Leg cramps were less than three percent and always was associated with "getting out" of Vitamin C tablets. Striae gravidarum was seldom encountered and when it was present there existed an associated problem of too much eating and too little walking. The capacity of the skin to resist the pressure of an expanding uterus will also vary in different individuals. Labor was shorter and less painful. There were no postpartum hemorrhages. The perineum was found to be remarkably elastic and episiotomy was performed electively. Healing was always by first intention and even after 15 and 20 years following the last child the firmness of the perineum is found to be similar to that of a primigravida in those who have continued their daily supplemental vitamin C. No patient required catheterization. No toxic manifestations were demonstrated in this series. There was no cardiac stress even though 22 patients of the series had rheumatic hearts. One patient in particular was carried through two pregnancies without complications. She had been warned by her previous obstetrician that a second pregnancy would terminate with a maternal death. She received no ascorbic acid with her first pregnancy. This lady has been back teaching school for the past 10 years. She still takes 10 grams of ascorbic acid daily. Infants born under massive ascorbic acid therapy were all robust. Not a single case required resuscitation. We experienced no feeding problems. The Fultz quadruplets were in this series. They took milk nourishment on the second day. These babies were started on 50 mg ascorbic acid the first day and, of course, this was increased as time went on. Our only nursery equipment was one hospital bed, an old, used single unit hot plate and an equally old 10 quart kettle. Humidity and ascorbic acid tells this story. They are the only quadruplets that have survived in southeastern United States. Another case of which I am justly proud is one in which we delivered 10 children to one couple. All are healthy and good looking. There were no miscarriages. All are living and well. They are frequently referred to as the vitamin C kids, in fact all of the babies from this series were called "Vitamin C Babies" by the nursing

Goes off to down a whole freaking spoon of it!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

If you have a problem in the Eustacian tubes, then sniff dry SA like snuff. Be prepared for a massive fluid dump. But SA used that way, will clear the nose, and the SA is often enough to work through the mucus membranes and help clear out the tubes.

Worth a try. Try it, and tell me if it works for you.

[Paper Cut]

If you have a problem in the Eustacian tubes, then sniff dry SA like snuff. Be prepared for a massive fluid dump. But SA used that way, will clear the nose, and the SA is often enough to work through the mucus membranes and help clear out the tubes.

Worth a try. Try it, and tell me if it works for you.

Sniffing it dry does not work for me, but it does if I make it in to a 10% solution in a nasal spray pump. Thats how I had cleared the first two days of blocked ears, but yesterday I could feel that there was still fluid behind the drum and it was starting to hurt, knew if I didn't act fast I'd end up with an infection as I had no end of trouble with my ears as a child (I was an ABX kid for the first 8 years of my life thanks to my ears!)

Anyway it took about 5 hours yesterday with 1kSA/Per Hour before they cleared, backed off then and had a 2k dose at bed time, they didn't block up over night and still about 90% this morning. Will SA load again today but have to be careful as its very hard to keep down, it seems to trigger morning sickness and I am having enough problems with that as it is lol

Edit - 4.40 pm -Absolutely nothing has helped today, ears slowly pressurized (vacuum) by about 11am and have got steadily worse, no amount of SA either snorted as HB does or in a 10/20% solution or orally at 1.5k/ph has worked, pretty much teetering at BT now.. steam inhalation - nada (makes them worse!) . What I wouldn't do to have a set of gromits in there right now to ventilate the inner ear :cry2: (had them as a child) - Dizzy, both ears blocked tight (I'd probably cope if it was just one) :sadsmiley02:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I'm so sorry about this paper cut. I know it sounds ridiculous, and far too simple, but have you done the hibernate with hot water bottle on each ear trick???

[Paper Cut]

I'm so sorry about this paper cut. I know it sounds ridiculous, and far too simple, but have you done the hibernate with hot water bottle on each ear trick???

Yes I have :cry2: I've tried it dry and moist with a hot wet flannel sitting on top of it against my ear (I use a wheat sack) Tired it lying on and then on top of my head (in case gravity helped drainage. The only thing I have not tried yet is straight saline in a nasal spray pump, so I will get a small bulb of pre-made saline today (because I can never seem to make it the correct strength!) and pop that in my spray bottle. I'm not sure anything that can be put IN the ear would be of help as there is no pain (ear infection etc) just negative pressure!

They were 100% pressurized last night all night so that made for an uncomfortable sleep, and was walking sideways this morning lol Right ear has managed to vent it self however at the moment so its just ole lefty (the problem ear from when I was a kid) thats blocked atm - I can cope with ONE blocked! Two blocked makes me walk funny :oops:

I tell ya what, this is enough to convince me that ONE CHILD is ENOUGH, thanks to Fibro I am guessing its made me sensitive to anything and everything that can happen in pregnancy :duh:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

hahaha... yeah. Way back, when I had chronic arthritis the only relief I got was being pregnant. The problem was that the year following the pregnancy was absolute dynamite. In the days before we figured it was caused by the rubella vaccine, and then used quackery to get rid of it, the doctor would just say, "Well, all you need to do is get pregnant every year.".

Well, if there wasn't anything to look after and cause life long side effects afterwards while you do have to put up with massive pain..., it might have been worth considering.....

this weekend, I realised that my husband was more than deaf, so syringed out his ears, removing a large peaty pellet from each one. The poor boy is complaining that everything sounds far too loud now. However.... he got his ears "pressurised" as well, and it took quite a bit of jaw movement in all directions as well as a bit of foot thumping jogging to get them to equalise. But he's still complaining that flushing the toilet sounds like he's in the toilet.....

[Paper Cut]

this weekend, I realised that my husband was more than deaf, so syringed out his ears, removing a large peaty pellet from each one. The poor boy is complaining that everything sounds far too loud now. However.... he got his ears "pressurised" as well, and it took quite a bit of jaw movement in all directions as well as a bit of foot thumping jogging to get them to equalise. But he's still complaining that flushing the toilet sounds like he's in the toilet.....

LOL! Poor man he can hear again! thats why my FIL refuses to wear his hearing aids, the worlds too loud!

I'm going to pop into Bay Audiology next week and just have them check inside my ears and make sure it all looks good. I'm patially deaf in my left due to all the years of ear infections as a kid so I just want to be 100% that they aren't clogged! but yesterday they were 100% open from about 10am-5pm so I have no idea its just driving me silly.

[gilima]

thanks for posting that :)
During my last pregnancy at around 6 months I got a tooth abscess and took upto 20 gram during the acute stage of a few days and slowly went down. The only concern my midwife had was that I not suddenly stop when things get better.

[gilima]

thanks for posting that :)During my last pregnancy at around 6 months I got a tooth abscess and took upto 20 gram during the acute stage of a few days and slowly went down. The only concern my midwife had was that I not suddenly stop when things get better.

[bbrandonsmom]

Thanks for posting the pregnancy info. I'd love to be pregnant again, and this past month, with the timing right, I had no access to info to find out about SA safety and pregnancy. Of course I'm not though-grumble grumble.
I seriously need to increase our SA. The boys are still not better and I'm getting annoyed.

[Paper Cut]

Turns out I had PET (Patulous Eustachian tube) in both ears and the SA was making me WORSE! Because its such an awesome decongestant and mucus thinner it was making the tubes drier and more open *ugh* since laying completely off the SA my ears have come right, this means I'm going to be low on C however so I am wondering if Lypo C would act the same way and dry me out .... I've never used Lypo C before (but have some on order for healing after) so if anyone has any idea I would be grateful.