The routine use of ultrasounds

[Lexie]

If this is in the wrong section...feel free to move it.

I found the AIMS (http://www.aims.org.uk/) website over a year ago. I can't remember exactly when. I searched for as many studies as I could find and only one didn't prove ultrasounds were harmful during pregnancy. It didn't prove they weren't though. In the end, it proved nothing, but it wasn't a very well done study in that the women were warned that ultrasounds may be harmful. We don't know what they may have done differently to prevent problems with their pregnancies which would have tainted the results.

All other studies I found summarized showed that there were more miscarriages, complications, birth defects, and developmental delays and lower IQ related to the use of ultrasounds. In a followup study, children were seen to have caught up to their peers by 2 years of age.

Dopplers are said to be more powerful than the average ultrasound machines, and 3D and 4D machines are, of course, the most powerful of all. American parents are taking home 3D ultrasound pictures of their babies in frames and being led to believe there's nothing wrong with this.

Some would argue that you can see problems you can prepare for before the child is born. There are many cases where ultrasound technicians aren't even sure what they're seeing and have diagnosed a non-existent problem causing mothers unnecessary worry for the remainder of her pregnancy. We all know stress is not good for a baby, or a pregnancy for that matter. Even in the cases where an issue was properly diagnosed, is early preparation really worth risking the entire pregnancy? What kind of preparation usually occurs anyway? Locating an experienced, reputable doctor? Unless the issue is life threatening--which, if not rare, would likely be reported often--again, is it worth risking the entire pregnancy? Should all babies be subjected to a harmful, sometimes fatal procedure because a few of them could be at risk?

I honestly believe that if every pregnancy was properly planned with good nutrition and supplementation where needed, the chances of problems would be greatly diminished.

My DH was one of the many people who saw nothing wrong with the use of ultrasound. His second daughter had a problem diagnosed by ultrasound, and the preparation he did was mental. I wouldn't have risked her life to have this knowledge. Also, having it would have only made me worry about it every single day. Plus, considering the way ultrasound affects cell migration, who's to say it didn't contribute to the problem if not cause it? That may be a leap, but do we know for sure? We really don't. I didn't want to, but I compromised with him on the issue with our DD. The brain, under normal circumstances, is said to be finished developing by the 36th gestational week. At 36 1/2 weeks, I allowed him an ultrasound, but I made the doctor aware that I wanted it to be as brief as possible. If he wasn't in the picture, there would have been no ultrasound at all, but he's her father and he demanded one. So if it ever becomes an issue to her, he'll have to live with her wrath.

[3monkeys]

I dont know how I feel about ultrasound...... I know my 2 oldest were "over ultrasounded" My oldest daughter has urinary incontinence. When I was pg with her I had the routine scans and then some because she had enlarged renal pelvis. I turned out to be nothing, they said it could cause urinary reflux and she could be on abx as a preventative. Anyway it was a whole lot of worry about nothing and even though he incontinence is probably somehow related, (her bladder empties at 30ml) its something we live with. Not a biggie. So I decided that I was going to have minimal ultrasounds with my next baby...... anyway

as fate would have it I miscarried (before any ultrasounds) so come pregnancy number 3 I was super paranoid. I had 3 significant bleeds in the first tri all followed up by u/s. So yes, DS was "over ultrasounded" too.

3rd baby I finally got through a pregnancy with only 1 ultrasound. And even then he told me my baby had a funny shaped head and long legs and I should come back for another one...... ummmmm whats the point? And the only reason I agreed to that is because I was going to homebirth in a very isolated place and my midwife needed to know that the placenta was high and everything looked ok. Fair enough I think. I was asking a lot from her.

Anyway, I do agree that most pregnancy monitoring is invasive. Have you ever been under a boat when the fish finder is on? Its AWFUL..... it actually hurts. Must be the same as an ultrasound after all they are both sound waves. No wonder the baby tries to "run away".......... Also the effects of sonar on whales - again sound waves - and causes them all sorts of issues. It jsut one of those things where it just doesnt sit right........

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was very lucky to know Joan Donley from my first pregnancy, and she sent me information on ultrasound when I was pregnant with my first. Because I grow hugely in the three middle months of pregnancy, the doctors thought I might have twins, and just about every appointment they wanted to do an ultrasound. I've never had one, with either pregnancy.

Regardless of their paranoia.

The discussion went like this.

them "We need to know if you have two babies in there"

me "why?"

them "because we can't hear two heart beats"

me "that's because there is only one."

Them "No, you look like you are too big for just one."

Me "but if there are two, you will be able to pick up two heart beats later on..."


Later on....

them "We need to do an ultrasound"

me "Why?"

them "because we can only hear one heart beat."

me "That's because there is only one."

Them "How do you know that?"

me "Well, the head is down there, and up here, two feet regularly play trapeze artistry on my ribs, and down here, whenever I front up to a bench or put on the car seat bet, two fists line up the impediment on the front and punch it... so I know."

them, "well your placenta might be in the wrong place"

me, "No it isn't."

them, "How do you know?"

me "because I know where it embedded, because I felt it embedding, AND... if it were in the wrong place, we would have had spotting, right?"

them, "Not necessarily. That might happen only in the last few weeks."

me, "Then shall we wait until then?"


Last six weeks, all of the above, yet again, with this final statement from me:

"You know what your problem is? It's not that there might be anything wrong with the baby, but the problem is that YOU JUST WANT TO KNOW, period. And normally everyone else plays your "want to know" game, so it annoys you when someone doesn't want to do the stranded upside down fly on the window-sill trick. The bottom line from me is that I will only consent to an ultrasound when there is good reason to, and none of your reasons are good clinical reason. You have a toy, and you want to play with it, and that's not a good reason."

I wanted to say by the end of my second pregnancy, but didn't, that wanting to play with toys for the sake of it routinely, rather than with good medical indication, is a form of control, or mental masturbation, but I bit my lip on that one... I was seriously wigged out by doctors on control freak missions by the time I'd had my second baby.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

However, I must add that they never got to hear our second son's heartbeat in the last four months, because the doc I had changed to, used a wooden old fashioned "horn", and every time he would push it on the bump, the baby would line it up and bash the daylights out of it, which meant a thoroughly thumped ear. In the end the doctor accepted that he was alive, and wasn't going to let him listen. He did want to use an ultrasound listener, to get around that issue, but I refused.

[Spy]

My younger son has a disability due to an ultrasound. That's one of the stupidities I didn't think of avoiding. :mad:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yes, I remember reading some time back, but didn't keep it and don't know where, that ultrasound can affect the auditory nerve if it hits it.

It's interesting to me that foetuses become very active under an ultrasound. My guess is that that is because they don't like it, and are trying to get away, but are a captive audience so to speak....

[Spy]

Pretty much any 'nerve' - if you affect neuron migration at the right time on the right angle with the right potency, you can break any nerve formation and even cause multiple complicated issues that will be called 'genetic' later. :eyeroll:

Well, the obvious explanation for the babies not liking the US would be that it is just plain painful! But no, we can't accept the obvious can we? :LMAO:

It is also good to look at other things that are sometimes associated with various neurological issues but also involve ultrasound which gets overlooked for the most part - like, our therapist kept telling me that IVF babies have a much higher rate of various brain issues. But then, wouldn't IVF babies be the most 'ultrasound-controlled' pregnancies of all? And so on.

[MinorityView]

No ultrasounds for my grandkids. The midwife didn't like them and my daughter didn't want them. No genetic testing either.

I do know one lady who had an ultrasound to help turn her baby who was breech at 8 or 8 1/2 months. It worked, and she was able to have a home birth. But it makes sense to use the tool when needed rather than to turn it into a routine intervention.

I'm incredibly thankful for my daughter's immense good sense.

[3monkeys]

It really wouldnt surprise me if the foetus is in some sort of pain during an ultrasounds. Although I have read NOTHING on the subject I have been under a boat when its had its fishfinder on and it must be the same sort of thing... sound waves travelling through water to form a picture? Really painful........

[Quickening]

Dr Sarah Buckley wrote a great article on ultrasound risks. I think Henci Goer has some research on ultrasounds as well in her book Obstetric Myths vs Research Realities.


"You know what your problem is? It's not that there might be anything wrong with the baby, but the problem is that YOU JUST WANT TO KNOW, period. And normally everyone else plays your "want to know" game, so it annoys you when someone doesn't want to do the stranded upside down fly on the window-sill trick. The bottom line from me is that I will only consent to an ultrasound when there is good reason to, and none of your reasons are good clinical reason. You have a toy, and you want to play with it, and that's not a good reason."

:LMAO:Classic! I'll remember that next time someone gives me crap. "You have a toy and you want to play with it. That's not a good reason!" :LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO:

I didn't have any ultrasounds in either pregnancy for the baby. A doctor attempted to scan my belly once and ignored me when I said No. I had to FORCIBLY remove his hand and sit up. Ooooh. He was so pissed and even more pissed when I had the audicacy to get mad at him and tell him off. I also reported him to the hospital.

Later on in pregnancy, I was pressured into having an ultrasound to check my kidneys as I had a sudden severe urinary infection. They went heavy with the control and fear tactics but I held my ground as best as I could. I wish I had not consented to the US of my kidneys because during the ultrasound my baby moved to my other side. When they did the other kidney, the baby moved away again. There was a lot of disturbance in my belly and my baby somehow managed to get herself turned into a breech position. I was not happy. She turned back a week later. Another negative of having that ultrasound was they found the right urether above the bony brim of my pelvis to be dilated and swollen. They gave me crap about having a stone and possibly being on dialysis for the rest of my life. :rolleyes: I KEPT asking them "Isn't it possible there is pressure on that area because I am PREGNANT and I have a baby in there putting pressure in all sorts of places? They would not acknowledge that! I signed myself out against medical advice :rolleyes: and went home. Researched. Found that it is a physiological change in pregnancy especially with the right urether above the bony brim. Uh huh.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yet another example of having to study what they SHOULD know, to protect yourself from what they have FORGOTTEN.

:chair:

[Lexie]

I :hearts: you, Hilary. You crack me up!

Sadly, I was forced into constant monitoring at the hospital, and then I stopped contracting. I don't know if it was because of the car ride there, or if it was something else. We must have spent 2 days and nights in there before I delivered. In that time, we were forced into lots of things. I hope that hospital goes out of business for its practices, but who am I kidding? These are just standard procedures here. Blargh.

My problem is I started looking for a midwife too late. I remember calling someone who was booked completely for the next 8 months. :confused: I didn't even know people started going to prenatal visits that far in advance. I thought most people didn't even know they were pregnant until after the first month. Must be lots of planned pregnancies. I started looking somewhere around the shift from the 1st to 2nd trimester. The only midwife I could find available didn't do homebirths to my dismay. At least she didn't try to force ultrasounds on me. She did bring it up now and then, but she accepted my disapproval. She even said I was right to worry at first, but in the 3rd trimester, she felt the dangerous period was over. I didn't agree.

I remember my poor baby moving away from the ultrasound waves. I could have died inside. Part of me wanted to. I felt so helpless. I cried for her. She would move away from it and go rest on the other side. They would find her quietly to herself and joke about her running away. I wanted to scratch their eyes out. It absolutely was not funny to me! One time the nurse kept shifting it for a few minutes trying to constantly catch her...sigh... My poor angel. I wasn't supposed to have anything I didn't consent to. I didn't consent to a lot of things. They caused me and my baby emotional distress. I don't think any court would care, so I just keep it to myself. But I regret the days, and I only wish I could forget how horrible they were.

I just tell myself that when it's her turn, I'll be there to make her moment as special and unintervened as it should be. Anyone trying to bully her will be bullied right back.

[Janet]

I think we need to broaden the ultrasound issue into how antenatal testing works, is deeply flawed, and how badly women can be impacted by false positives and negatives as well. It's not just the physical fact of the ultrasound which most reputable sources agree is, at best, an unrestrained social experiment. It's also the money making opportunities now that surgeons have invented whole new reasons to make u/s a constant test throughout pregnancy but with no concomitant improvement in outcomes. While I have reservations about a lot of it, the book "Defiant Birth" is a bit of an uncritiqued window into the experience of being pushed into this testing and the normalisation of it in our current medical machinery around birth. So many women are now waiting to let themselves experience normal bonding with their babies until they get the All Clear from surgeons. And then other women live with weeks and months of distress and anxiety (great womb environment there.... NOT) because of the testing only to show at birth the kid is totally fine.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

that book looks right up my alley Janet

[gilima]

I agree with all you have said, but I think sometimes we have to follow our womanly intuition......
with this last pregnancy, towards the end I had the urge to have an us, and I kept telling the midwife that I want one to see if the baby's heart is o.k.......she didn't argue with me , although dh kept saying "what for"??
at about 36 weeks I had us and even told the tech that I did not want to know the gender just a look see at the heart.....
In hindsight I realize that I was driven by something that I just could not explain, and after the baby was born at home with the midwife and we saw that he had down syndrome , we were grateful that we had the knowledge that his heart and organs were fine and we didn't need to go to the hospital where he would have been rushed into the nicu and poked and tested needlessly........
this way we had peace and bonding.....and our son was able to experience that......
I still wouldn't recommend routine us.....only if someone feels an "urge " or something...

[MinorityView]

Sensible advice. There are times when medical intervention can be very useful and that was one of them.

How is your baby doing? Or is something that happened many years ago?

[gilima]

baby is 8 weeks old and doing well:) it has taken him a while to learn how to breastfeed and gain weight. Iam ever thankfull for the homebirth and a midwife with years of experience.

If I would have been seen by a dr.......... it would have been an uphill battle....... they push for ultrasounds really early on, then due to my age they would have been pushing for ammnio, which I would have declined anyway...and if they would have suspected down syndrome....they would have subjected the poor baby to endless tests that are not always necessary just because of down's....
since he was born at home and had already pee'd pooh'd passed the meconium and was able to swallow and even suck (even though it was a week suck) I knew he didn't need all these tests when IO did take him in to see the dr. btw, they did not see any of the "markers" for down on the one US I did, ....but if
i had done a couple early on they might have, and there is no evidence of a better outcome....in fact the opposite!!

[MinorityView]

Good for you all the way around! You are a wonderful momma, just in case no one has said that to you today.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yes, Gilima... you are doing fabulously.

[Lexie]

I don't consider what you had to be routine. Besides, at the point when you had it, I think the least amount of damage from the ultrasound waves can be expected. Cells aren't migrating so much as they are multiplying by then.

I think the fact that you knew something was going on even though you couldn't see it shows just how strong your bond is with your son and that's a beautiful thing. I don't see that you did anything wrong.

[gilima]

thanks for your support mamas:)

[oloph]

I was hoping to avoid having an ultrasound for this pregnancy but my midwife said it is the only way to tell if my placenta has grown in to my c/s scar. Not sure I really believe that because shouldn't they be able to hear with a scope whether or not the placenta is in the front or the back?

I also allowed the use of the doppler to hear the heartbeat with my old ob's office because I was making such a stink about a whole host of other things and didn't think the risk was that great. This time around I'm definitely questioning it more and I'm sure my midwife would be more flexible. What is everyone's opinion on that?

[Quickening]

Dopplers use pinpointed high frequency ultrasound. So a doppler is still an ultrasound.

I know many people who have had prior caesareans and have refused ultrasounds in subsequent pregnancies. The increased risk of problems like placenta acretion etc is only slightly increased if you've had a cs, and it increases again each time but slightly. overall the risk is still low.

[flatoutgallop]

I really wish I had known more about ultrasound during my pregnancies.
In 2 pregnancies, the only one scan (out of 3 in one pregnancy, and 8 in the other) was worth it. And that was the scan that told us Lucas was in trouble and needed to be born very soon.
Without that scan, he may well have gone on to be stillborn - so I am thankful for that one scan.
but the rest....they were just 'we need to know' type scans...no REAL reason for them....Some were where my (s)care provider 'needed to know' and a couple were ones where *I* 'needed to know'....
Either way - totally unneccesary and I wish I hadnt had them.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

My sister is totally anti ultrasound, but in her second pregnancy she "knew" there was something wrong from the start. She had two ultrasounds both of which came back clean.

Her baby was born with serious heart issues, which became evident within two hours, and she spent her younger years in and out of hospital, operation after operation.

Sometimes ultrasounds show, sometimes they don't.

But I like to think that if mothers are able to listen to their own bodies and intuition, they can use those promptings if they wish to.

The problem is the medical profession devalues womens' intuition....

[flatoutgallop]

The problem is the medical profession devalues womens' intuition....

Yep. THAT.

Prime Example...
With my DS - I knew something was wrong, and I knew it was happening when I was consistantly measuring 4-5 weeks behind in fundal height, and I wasnt growing (um, so baby wasnt!)... but my MW kept reassuring me that NOTHING was wrong. No matter how much I said to her that I felt somethign was wrong - maybe we should check it out - she ignored me. It wasnt until I swapped MW at 35 weeks, that I got the ultrasound at 37 weeks (the new MW realised within 2 weekly visits that something was wrong!) and at the ultrasound, we realised that really - the ultrasound should have been done WEEKS ago. IUGR, low fetal heartrate and low blood flow from the placenta. He'd have been stillborn if he was in there much longer. So for that, I AM glad I had the ultrasound. But dont even get me started on the 'emergency' c-section it lead to GRR...