Momtezuma Tuatara
10-02-09, 05:39 PM
Many parents can state from their experience, that the use of sodium ascorbate thins mucus. You wouldn't find that in medical literature, since doctors will not even look at things like that, and would consider you to be in cuckooland, so don't even tell them if you are doing it. It's just not worth the aggro:
Someone asked me today, what to do to thin the mucus down. They had only got sodium ascorbate that day, so hadn't had time to get it all into action.
So lets talk about known ways to thin mucus.
1) N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). There is a thread about that here:
http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=522 (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=522) Post 7 and 8 are most relevant to whooping cough.
I've only known one person to resort to NAC with whooping cough.
So lets look at why NAC would be of potential use with whooping cough.
Whooping cough is a toxin-mediated disease, and it's the toxin the bacteria releases which thickens the mucus in the bronchial tubes, to make it hard for the immune system to get in there and disable the bacteria. In the process, cilia are cut off, and the mucus becomes harder for the remaining cilia to get up. Vitamin C, as a anti-toxin, can reduce the toxin excretions, which in my opinion, is the reason why vitamin C thins the mucus. Most mothers find it works well, including myself.
NAC on the other hand, is an anti-oxidant, as well as mucolytic
Here is a study which shows it of use in another toxin-mediated disease:
http://www.smajournalonline.com/pt/re/smj/abstract.00007611-200511000-00012.htm;jsessionid=JRsQb2JN93RqyWLmy5hd43sZCVNqG Jxw7LZ3g8QhZFxYS9FQXlC1!1219197830!181195629!8091!-1
Abstract
Background: Use of mucolytic agents that result in reduced mucous viscosity of the gastric mucous has been suggested to have an additive effect in curing Helicobacter pylori infection.
Methods: Seventy H pylori-positive patients were given either eradication treatment consisting of 500 mg clarithromycin bid and 30 mg lansoprazole bid for 10 days plus 10 mL (400 mg) N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) liquid tid (AC group) or eradication treatment only (control group). The results were compared 1 month after the completion of the treatment.
Results: Fifty-eight patients were available for statistical analysis. Of the 28 patients in the AC group, 14 (50.0%) eradicated the infection after treatment, whereas only 7 of 30 (23.3%) patients in the control group had negative results. The difference between the AC group and the control group was statistically significant (P = 0.034). In both groups, there was no difference in the number of smokers and in the eradication rates between smokers and nonsmokers. Eradication treatment with or without NAC caused no significant side effects in either group.
Conclusions: Our findings suggest that NAC has an additive effect on the eradication rates of H pylori obtained with dual therapy with lansoprazole and clarithromycin. NAC does not have any known activity against H pylori, but it may improve the delivery of antibiotics at the site of infection due to its ability to reduce the thickness of the mucus.
Note this medical article on chinchilla's here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241
Microbial Pathogenesis (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/08824010)
Volume 21, Issue 5 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%236954%231996%23999789994%23306575% 23FLT%23&_cdi=6954&_pubType=J&view=c&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=25d8b1e98e1af6732a857338a50fd67c), November 1996, Pages 343-356
Copyright © 1996 Academic Press Limited. All rights reserved.
Regular Paper
Selective adherence of non-typeableHaemophilus influenzae(NTHi) to mucus or epithelial cells in the chinchilla Eustachian tube and middle ear*1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241#m4.1)
Naoya Miyamoto and Lauren O. Bakaletzf2 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241#f2)
Otological Research Laboratories, Department of Otolaryngology, College of Medicine, The Ohio State University, Columbus, 43210, OH, U.S.A.
Received 8 March 1996;
accepted 8 June 1996. ;
Available online 19 April 2002.
Abstract
Frozen sections of chinchilla Eustachian tube (ET) and middle ear mucosa were incubated with either FITC-labeled non-typeableHaemophilus influenzae(NTHi) orBordetella pertussis. The number of bacteria adherent to “roof” vs “floor” regions was compared for each of three anatomic portions of the ET and for middle ear epithelium noting whether bacteria adhered to mucus or to epithelial cells. NTHi strains adhered significantly greater to mucus in the ET lumen whereas B. pertussis preferentially adhered to epithelial cells lining the ET (P≤0.05). A non-fimbriated isogenic mutant of NTHi adhered significantly less to mucus than the parental isolate at all sites of the ET floor (P≤0.05). Isolated fimbrin protein adhered to ET mucus and blocked adherence of whole organisms. Treatment with the mucolytic agent N-acetyl-L-cysteine resulted in significantly reduced adherence of NTHi to mucus (P≤0.001) and eliminated the ability to detect binding of isolated fimbrin protein. N-acetyl-L-cysteine treatment did not affect adherence of eitherB. pertussisor NTHi to epithelial cells. These data indicated that NTHi may mediate ascension of the ET from the nasopharynx primarily via adherence to and growth in mucus overlying the floor region of the tubal lumen. The OMP P5-homologous fimbriae were shown to contribute to this binding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
However, the article of course, doesn't address the thinning of the mucus or ability of the chinchill a to cough, since the study was in the ear....
and we all know that animal models are dicey...
e.g.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7586/197 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7586/197)
"Discordance between animal and human studies may be due to ... the failure of animal models to mimic clinical disease adequately. "
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7438/514 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7438/514)
"the public often consider it axiomatic that animal research has contributed to the treatment of human disease, yet little evidence is available to support this view."
funny though, how animal studies are used to back up whether or not human studies will work...
When animal studies are all we have, lets talk about it...
Someone asked me today, what to do to thin the mucus down. They had only got sodium ascorbate that day, so hadn't had time to get it all into action.
So lets talk about known ways to thin mucus.
1) N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). There is a thread about that here:
http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=522 (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=522) Post 7 and 8 are most relevant to whooping cough.
I've only known one person to resort to NAC with whooping cough.
So lets look at why NAC would be of potential use with whooping cough.
Whooping cough is a toxin-mediated disease, and it's the toxin the bacteria releases which thickens the mucus in the bronchial tubes, to make it hard for the immune system to get in there and disable the bacteria. In the process, cilia are cut off, and the mucus becomes harder for the remaining cilia to get up. Vitamin C, as a anti-toxin, can reduce the toxin excretions, which in my opinion, is the reason why vitamin C thins the mucus. Most mothers find it works well, including myself.
NAC on the other hand, is an anti-oxidant, as well as mucolytic
Here is a study which shows it of use in another toxin-mediated disease:
http://www.smajournalonline.com/pt/re/smj/abstract.00007611-200511000-00012.htm;jsessionid=JRsQb2JN93RqyWLmy5hd43sZCVNqG Jxw7LZ3g8QhZFxYS9FQXlC1!1219197830!181195629!8091!-1
Abstract
Background: Use of mucolytic agents that result in reduced mucous viscosity of the gastric mucous has been suggested to have an additive effect in curing Helicobacter pylori infection.
Methods: Seventy H pylori-positive patients were given either eradication treatment consisting of 500 mg clarithromycin bid and 30 mg lansoprazole bid for 10 days plus 10 mL (400 mg) N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) liquid tid (AC group) or eradication treatment only (control group). The results were compared 1 month after the completion of the treatment.
Results: Fifty-eight patients were available for statistical analysis. Of the 28 patients in the AC group, 14 (50.0%) eradicated the infection after treatment, whereas only 7 of 30 (23.3%) patients in the control group had negative results. The difference between the AC group and the control group was statistically significant (P = 0.034). In both groups, there was no difference in the number of smokers and in the eradication rates between smokers and nonsmokers. Eradication treatment with or without NAC caused no significant side effects in either group.
Conclusions: Our findings suggest that NAC has an additive effect on the eradication rates of H pylori obtained with dual therapy with lansoprazole and clarithromycin. NAC does not have any known activity against H pylori, but it may improve the delivery of antibiotics at the site of infection due to its ability to reduce the thickness of the mucus.
Note this medical article on chinchilla's here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241
Microbial Pathogenesis (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/08824010)
Volume 21, Issue 5 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%236954%231996%23999789994%23306575% 23FLT%23&_cdi=6954&_pubType=J&view=c&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=25d8b1e98e1af6732a857338a50fd67c), November 1996, Pages 343-356
Copyright © 1996 Academic Press Limited. All rights reserved.
Regular Paper
Selective adherence of non-typeableHaemophilus influenzae(NTHi) to mucus or epithelial cells in the chinchilla Eustachian tube and middle ear*1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241#m4.1)
Naoya Miyamoto and Lauren O. Bakaletzf2 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN6-45MGTM9-F&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8537e8f8f15f4a06edd0e234fc64b241#f2)
Otological Research Laboratories, Department of Otolaryngology, College of Medicine, The Ohio State University, Columbus, 43210, OH, U.S.A.
Received 8 March 1996;
accepted 8 June 1996. ;
Available online 19 April 2002.
Abstract
Frozen sections of chinchilla Eustachian tube (ET) and middle ear mucosa were incubated with either FITC-labeled non-typeableHaemophilus influenzae(NTHi) orBordetella pertussis. The number of bacteria adherent to “roof” vs “floor” regions was compared for each of three anatomic portions of the ET and for middle ear epithelium noting whether bacteria adhered to mucus or to epithelial cells. NTHi strains adhered significantly greater to mucus in the ET lumen whereas B. pertussis preferentially adhered to epithelial cells lining the ET (P≤0.05). A non-fimbriated isogenic mutant of NTHi adhered significantly less to mucus than the parental isolate at all sites of the ET floor (P≤0.05). Isolated fimbrin protein adhered to ET mucus and blocked adherence of whole organisms. Treatment with the mucolytic agent N-acetyl-L-cysteine resulted in significantly reduced adherence of NTHi to mucus (P≤0.001) and eliminated the ability to detect binding of isolated fimbrin protein. N-acetyl-L-cysteine treatment did not affect adherence of eitherB. pertussisor NTHi to epithelial cells. These data indicated that NTHi may mediate ascension of the ET from the nasopharynx primarily via adherence to and growth in mucus overlying the floor region of the tubal lumen. The OMP P5-homologous fimbriae were shown to contribute to this binding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
However, the article of course, doesn't address the thinning of the mucus or ability of the chinchill a to cough, since the study was in the ear....
and we all know that animal models are dicey...
e.g.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7586/197 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7586/197)
"Discordance between animal and human studies may be due to ... the failure of animal models to mimic clinical disease adequately. "
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7438/514 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7438/514)
"the public often consider it axiomatic that animal research has contributed to the treatment of human disease, yet little evidence is available to support this view."
funny though, how animal studies are used to back up whether or not human studies will work...
When animal studies are all we have, lets talk about it...