What I would do, should Swine Flu come knocking.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Here is some material which got knocked out of JALP after the first draft. But it forms the basis of my "roots" one might say:



Dad’s father was a Yorkshire man working for the British Hongkong/Shanghai bank, and his mother, a quite unconventional and very resourceful, knowledgeable woman from Surrey.

During one posting to India there was a 10 year long typhoid outbreak in Calcutta, which started in 1898. Dad’s mother nursed the locals for many years, without any deaths, or catching it herself. Then in 1907 she, and her three youngest children got typhoid. The locals, who she had nursed, did not nurse her, or her children. Two of her children died, but she, and the youngest baby, survived. All her hair fell out and grew back auburn. Other postings were Singapore, Malaysia, and China, where there was an outbreak of cholera, and his mother took many of the local sick into her house to nurse them. She did not get cholera herself. Then they spent time in Japan, where my father was born, and migrated with their young family to New Zealand in 1917, for the duration of the First World War.

They were living on Kawau Island in 1918 when the flu epidemic struck. Governor Grey’s old large house had been turned into a hotel, and the gardens and grounds were fantastic. My father was in kid’s heaven surrounded by beaches, fish, gardens, wallabies, and kookaburras. A coastal ferry brought supplies twice a week. The main occupation for the children was fishing from the pier. The sting ray were huge and the children always watched out for either sting rays or sharks.

When the flu epidemic hit, Dad’s mother turned the hotel into a hospital, with the help of the maid. The men were nursed upstairs, and the women downstairs. Dad clearly remembers getting it. He was at the pier, and simply buckled. By the time he managed to crawl up the steps of the hotel he was exhausted. By the end of the epidemic, only two people on the whole of Kawau Island had not had the flu. They were Dad’s mother, and the maid, who between them, with help from others when they could, had nursed the whole Island back to health with not one death.

Why was it that no one on Kawau Island died? Could it be that deaths are often caused because people either don’t have the care, or the knowledge to look after themselves and one another? And why was it that the two people who had maximum exposure to the virus, never got it themselves?

This story is worth telling, because it is stories of the time that people recount to this day, that often form the basis of future scare-mongering about the flu. Good news is, it would seem, no news. We only get told about how many people died in 1918, not the ones who survived because of the skills of the people who looked after them.

Because of the current ramping up of fear about a potential bird flu epidemic, it’s a good idea to talk about some of the epidemic propaganda that passes for history.

Perhaps its best called HOGSWASH AND GUANO.

No Known Vaccine Available



To Halt the Deadly Menace.




World Is on Brink of

Killer Flu Epidemic[1] (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=69#_ftn1)

“A flu that normally affects only hogs may wipe out millions of people beginning next year.”

Readers were told that

“In 1918, the killer of the disease was preceded by a milder epidemic such as the U.S. is experiencing now . . . ONE BILLION people fell ill – one of every three persons in the world,” . . . and “. . . IF THE swine virus is a deadly as some scientists believe it to be, it already may be too late to prevent an epidemic – even if a vaccine is found tomorrow.”

Sound familiar?

[1] (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=69#_ftnref1) The National Insider (1976, 11 April).

And then I go on to talk about Swine flu.....

So, I know, and my family knows, that epidemics can be got through.

There is one thing more powerful than a virus, and it's fear. My grandmother knew that, but many people today, do not.

[Karamea]

OK.... thank you Hilary.

So... keep clean, keep warm, nutritious food, lots of sun, eat fish, veges? What else would one do to 'care' for others?

Hilary, what would I do if hypothetically my little boy had 'swine flu' and he got worse, and worse? Would there ever be a point when Tamiflu would be needed to save his life?

I know these questions may seem obvious but I want to be prepared if I have to make a decision.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Remember that was the first draft, so there had been little editting done.

before I talk about what I'd do, lets look at what we know is important to prevent flu in the first place. See attached pdf. Note that Scragg, is a New Zealander...

[Wonder-Full]

Would you still avoid tamiflu say in my ds's case? I feel between a rock and hard place with him...

I can (and we are) doing all the prevention and good stuff, and tbh, I'm super glad we're homeschooling (one more reason anyway) but if it were to happen does he really stand a fighting chance - tamiflu or hope for the best without? I just phoned the nurse at the doctors and got the fob off and told if he got the flu THEN phone and I will be given an 0800 number (she couldn't find it) to phone for the procedures.

I am going to taper him down his steroids one more step tomorrow I think (a week early). Then it will be another 2mths till he's off and further 3 for a fully functioning immune system (of course, all the stuff I'm doing already may in fact have it recovering sooner anyway).

Do they have estimates (a piece of string perhaps....) on how long pandemics usually run?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Okay, this next pdf document is an absolute gob full. Read it at your peril. Though is has some easy bits in it, there is a lot of gravel. It was written as a serial of posts at Mothering in 2003, after a member there lost a child from influenza. Those posts were deleted in 2004, but I had formatted it on this word doco before it got put up, and have converted it to a pdf for here.

Technical yes, but it might be a bit of use.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

First of all, the symptoms of this flu outside of Mexico, have been very mild.

Second remember that the side effects of Tamiflu are very similar to serious influenza as well. Have a look at the package slip. Have a look on internet. So you give a patient with the flu Tamiflu, and if they get the same side effects that Tamiflu creates, which are like the flu, does that mean 1 + 1 = 2, and the pain is much greater? And if that person then dies, is that evidence of Tamiflu enhanced disease, or proof that swine flu is uber dangerous?

If you've read the BBC posts by Mexico doctors, the anti-virals are just not working in Mexico. Just maybe, it's making the cases worse. And who would know that, since new virus = new situation = unknown possibilities.

Given that the flu is supposedly most dangerous in young people with fully operative and strong immune systems, does that include your son? Would a person on steroids potentially be in a better position? You are in uncharted waters my dear....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/96/103746.htm (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/96/103746.htm)


In fact, there are plenty of vitamins and minerals that can boost the immune system -- and many can be found in fruits and vegetables, says Elaine Magee, MPH, RD, a consultant with WebMD's Weight Loss Clinic and author of The Flax Cookbook. In the last 30 years, studies have shown that even mild nutrient deficiencies can impair the immune system and lead to frequent, severe infections, says Magee.
Flaxseed oil contains omega-3 fatty acids and plant estrogens (called lignans), both good for the immune system and fighting a flu virus.
Also, eat foods that have plenty of vitamin B-6; folic acid; vitamins C, A, and E; zinc, iron; and selenium, she advises. Those include:

Vitamin B-6: Poultry, lean meat, fish, nuts and seeds, and fruits (bananas, avocados, mangos, prune juice, and grapes)
Folic acid: Beans, nuts, dark-green vegetables, fruits (orange juice, papaya, banana, mango, kiwi, cantaloupe, and berries)
Vitamin C: Citrus fruits, papaya, strawberries, kiwi, cantaloupe, mango, red peppers, broccoli, cabbage, dark green vegetables, tomatoes, and potatoes.
Vitamin A: All dark-green and yellow-orange vegetables and fruits.
Vitamin E: Peanuts, almonds, mango, Swiss chard, papaya, pumpkin, grapes, broccoli, spinach, and blueberries.
Zinc: Beef, poultry, seafood, nuts, whole-grain breads and cereals, tofu, beans, milk.
Iron: Shellfish, lean beef, dried beans, eggs, nuts, dark chicken/turkey meat, breads and pasta; green vegetables.
Selenium: Brazil nuts, oysters, clams, lean pork and ham, whole-grain bread, chicken and turkey, sunflower seeds, lean beef, oatmeal, soy nuts, eggs, nuts, and low-fat dairy products.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I found this on another board, and it was a question to a doctor:

"Question.... If you catch the swine flu, use Tamiflu within the 48 hour window so you do not actually become ill, do you then have an immunity to catching it again?"

Doubtful. Tamiflu short-circuits the virus by inhibiting neuraminidase production; this locks the budding viral copies of the initial virus to the surface of the infected cell (neuraminadase production is necessary to release the viral particles from the surface of the cell). The immune system components that would normally clear the virus from the system -- and remember it for future reference -- do not have the opportunity to marshall a defence against the virus. No defence=no reason to recognize the virus in the future.

"Since the cases seem to be mild, would it be better just to get it and get it over with?"

We had a lengthy discussion with regard to this subject, and H5N1, here, a few years back. There is no way to ensure that the variant that you are infected with can be guaranteed to just be "mild." And, about 70% of a given population (with the exception of populations that are utterly influenza naive) seems to possess an inherent resistance to any given influenza strain, at any given time; so there is, of course, no certainty that you could just "get it," at all.

[phersh]

Dear All And Hilary,

Thanks as always. Of course, we are following all the hype and fear here in California. The local paper has a headline that reads "Swine Flu Fear Spreads." That's for sure and what a grim joke.

Based on the articles Hilary has referenced and my own reading I would say look very strongly at Vitamin D (and find a good homeopath).

As Heidi-Lore (http://heidilore.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/avoid-flu-shots-take-vitamin-d-instead/) writes:
"The activated form of vitamin D (1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D) attaches to receptors on genes that control their expression, which turn protein production on or off. Vitamin D regulates the expression of more than 1,000 genes throughout the body. They include ones in macrophages, cells in the immune system that, among other things, attack and destroy viruses. Vitamin D switches on genes in macrophages that make antimicrobial peptides, antibiotics the body produces. Like antibiotics, these peptides attack and destroy bacteria; but unlike antibiotics, they also attack and destroy viruses. Vitamin D also expresses genes that stop macrophages from overreacting to an infection and releasing too many inflammatory agents – cytokines – that can damage infected tissue."


Don't let Spanish Flu stories scare you. This article about the hysteria in the histories about Spanish Flu (http://www.vran.org/vaccines/flu-bird/flu-hyst1918.htm) is one of many you can find.



About Aspirin (http://www.didyouknow.org/aspirin.htm), (Felix Hoffmann's other discovery besides Heroin), it was considered quite the miracle drug in 1917. "Feeling unwell, just take a few of these and you'll feel better and your fever will go away". Millions did. Of course, with no fever, the virus in your body gets to have wild party in your lungs.

Take care of yourselves,
Phil

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I disagree about the Aspirin. There are plenty of doctors who wrote about the fact that all the people they ended up treating for pneumonia, had used aspirin.

I'd say, don't use aspirin.

[Wonder-Full]

Given that the flu is supposedly most dangerous in young people with fully operative and strong immune systems, does that include your son? Would a person on steroids potentially be in a better position? You are in uncharted waters my dear....

Reading one of the threads in your elderberry post talks of steroids possibly having the same benefits as taking the cucurnim for it's anti-inflammatory properties. Yeah...unchartered waters. It's probably the rest of us that need to worry lol.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Why worry? Worry does nothing but bomb your immune system. Do what you can and enjoy every day, treating each one as a "present".

[Wonder-Full]

Not worrying. :) I was trying to find another word as I knew you'd pick up on that. :giggle: But gave up and said it anyway.

[Quickening]

Given that the flu is supposedly most dangerous in young people with fully operative and strong immune systems

Is it really? I find that difficult to swallow. I'm sitting here cynically wondering if that is the new party line the provax people are using to generate the social "fact" that goes with the social "myth" that you can prevent disease with good health and nutrition. You can read the myths the provaccine people publish about arguments against vaccinating on the cdc website. Apply it to the "facts" you are hearing repeated over and over and it works together nicely to reinforce the message that vaccination is necessary and vital and in "fact", our only recourse to preventing disease, death and disability.

Just because a piece of information has a strong power base and hierarchy backing it does not mean it is an actual, true fact despite society adopting it as "fact" and assimilating it into the way things are. I like Robbie Davis Floyd for this - her work on knowledge systems of societies.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

In relation to this "swine flu" the mexicans have reported that most deaths have been in the young healthy bracket. That is what happened during the 1918 flu, but for different reasons than now.

Ordinary flu, according to them is different.

I'm only reporting what they are saying. I don't generally "believe" anything that they say is enshrined in concrete.... :p never have. You know that :D

[Sakura]

I'm thinking that swine flu "came knocking" at our family's door last week.

DD was sick last week, with fever, cough, fatigue and achiness. We had gone to a playdate on Monday morning, and sure enough, she starting coming down with symptoms on Wednesday morning. We had had a quiet weekend at home, gardening and planting veggies in our backyard, so the Monday playdate was the only day that I can think of in which she had a significant exposure to others. Incubation for swine flu is 2-7 days.

I would say it was a "mild" illness overall. Certainly much milder than the "regular" flu that I came down with last winter. She had one day where she was feeling pretty achy and tired (she kept saying "I don't feel well, Mommy" and "I'm sick."), and she had a fever (not particularly high though, around 100 axillary at the worst of it) and we just cuddled and nursed. There was one evening where she complained that her head hurt. The cough sounded pretty deep for a few days, not "barking", rattly or wet in quality. She had almost zero rhinorrhea, which struck me as a bit unusual.

We stayed home for 6 days. On the 1st through 4th days, we rested a lot, but she was pretty happy and playing. On the 5th and 6th days, she was acting totally normally, just with a lingering cough so we chose to lay low to not expose others. We returned to our normal routine on day 7.

Another little friend that attended the same playdate also came down with it.

DH and I did not get it, despite close household contact.

We do live in an area where the first reported cases in the US happened, so it's possible that it has been circulating in this community for a while.

All I have to say is...breastmilk rules!

[cartersmom]

I'm thinking that swine flu "came knocking" at our family's door last week.

DD was sick last week, with fever, cough, fatigue and achiness. We had gone to a playdate on Monday morning, and sure enough, she starting coming down with symptoms on Wednesday morning. We had had a quiet weekend at home, gardening and planting veggies in our backyard, so the Monday playdate was the only day that I can think of in which she had a significant exposure to others. Incubation for swine flu is 2-7 days.

I would say it was a "mild" illness overall. Certainly much milder than the "regular" flu that I came down with last winter. She had one day where she was feeling pretty achy and tired (she kept saying "I don't feel well, Mommy" and "I'm sick."), and she had a fever (not particularly high though, around 100 axillary at the worst of it) and we just cuddled and nursed. There was one evening where she complained that her head hurt. The cough sounded pretty deep for a few days, not "barking", rattly or wet in quality. She had almost zero rhinorrhea, which struck me as a bit unusual.

We stayed home for 6 days. On the 1st through 4th days, we rested a lot, but she was pretty happy and playing. On the 5th and 6th days, she was acting totally normally, just with a lingering cough so we chose to lay low to not expose others. We returned to our normal routine on day 7.

Another little friend that attended the same playdate also came down with it.

DH and I did not get it, despite close household contact.

We do live in an area where the first reported cases in the US happened, so it's possible that it has been circulating in this community for a while.

All I have to say is...breastmilk rules!


Just wondering why you don't think it was the regular flu vs the swine flu??

[Sakura]

It could have been either, of course.

My point in posting was the authorities are reporting that the swine flu is milder than regular flu, http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-sci-swine-reality30-2009apr30,0,3606923.story .

[phersh]

I disagree about the Aspirin. There are plenty of doctors who wrote about the fact that all the people they ended up treating for pneumonia, had used aspirin.

I'd say, don't use aspirin.

I am against lowering fever unless it is extremely high. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I am against the use of aspirin.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I would say though, that there have been three times in my life when pain has been so high, that I've been driven to use paracetamol, but only once each time.

So IF, IF, I get to a situation where I need paracetamol, my protocol has been vitaminC and NAC to protect the liver, and then 2 paracetamol to get me over the hump. I've never needed more than two during any one health episode, ever. They are solely used to take enough of the pain away for me to relax, which gets me over the peak. The rest I can cope with.

[Barefoot]

I disagree about the Aspirin. There are plenty of doctors who wrote about the fact that all the people they ended up treating for pneumonia, had used aspirin.

I'd say, don't use aspirin.

Avoid aspirin for the Flu, some more info on that and Homeopathy in the 1918 epedemic.
http://www.homeoweb.com/bird_flu_more.htm



The Use of Homeopathic medicines in the 1918 Influenza Epidemic

There has been much discussion about the merits or otherwise of Avian Flu anti-viral medicines in the media but no discussion of the effectiveness of homeopathy in the treatment of influenza. History shows us that homeopathy was used by homeopathic physicians in USA to treat patients during 1918-1919 influenza epidemic. From information recorded by these doctors, homeopathic treatment was highly successful. In most cases one or two homeopathic medicines were needed. These are known as the “Genus epidemicus (http://www.homeoweb.com/nothing.htm)” in an epidemic and become known through the careful observation of a number of influenza cases. It is difficult to speculate exactly what homeopathic remedies will work best in the possible Avian flu epidemic. However there are a number of known ‘flu remedies that may be useful eg Gelsemium, Bryonia, Arnica, Eupatorium perfoliatum, Arsenicum etc . In the 1918 epidemic Gelsemium and Bryonia were most commonly indicated according to the following extracts.

In 1921 W.A. Dewey MD., published a paper in the Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy entitled “Homeopathy in Influenza – A Chorus of Fifty in Harmony”. The following extracts are from this paper.

• In Philadelphia 26,795 cases of influenza treated by homeopathic physicians had a mortality rate of 1.05% compared with the conventional mortality rate of 30%.

• In Connecticut 30 physicians reported 6,602 cases with 55 deaths, (<1%).

• Dr Roberts in Connecticut also reported 81 cases in the transport service all treated with homeopathic treatment and all recovered.

• In a factory in Chicago, Dr Wieland reported influenza in 8000 workers with one death.
All were treated with Gelsemium. He reports no aspirin was used and no vaccines.

• Dr Williams in Rhode Island reported no losses from influenza and a 2.1% loss in those that developed pneumonia. He observed that Drs using aspirin as the main treatment were having a 60% mortality in those patients that developed pneumonia.

• Dr Sappington reports that from 1500 influenza cases recorded by the Homeopathic Medical Society of the District of Columbia only 15 died. Recoveries in the National Homeopathic Hospital was 100%

• In Ohio, Dr McCann treated 1000 cases of influenza and had no losses. He says all credit must be given to homeopathy.

• Raymond Siedel decided to become a homeopathic doctor when he was a 10 year old delivery boy for a local homeopath. He said “ I saw that people who were taking Aspirin were dying, about half those who were drinking a lot of whiskey were dying, and those that received homeopathic remedies were living.”

• It was generally observed by homeopaths in the US at the time that the use of Aspirin was a major cause of deaths during the influenza epidemic. Its indirect action came through the fact that aspirin was taken until prostration resulted and the patient developed pneumonia.

• In Kentucky Dr Huff wrote “ I almost invariably gave (homeopathic medicines) Gelsemium or Bryonia. I hardly ever lost a case if I got there first, unless the patient had been sent to a drug store and bought Aspirin, in which event I was likely to have a case of pneumonia on my hands.”