Questions on Elderberry.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was asked if Elderberry extract would make this flu worse because of the cytokine storm.

Please read three posts: This post (http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3366349&postcount=32)for that point of view, then read this post (http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3366689&postcount=42) for Summerthyme's view. Sharbar then responds later on this thread here (http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3367338&postcount=55). Please note the warnings about curcumin. If you want to know more about curcumin from a New Zealand site see here (http://www.curcumin.co.nz/).

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

There's also this, which is the most ridiculous study out. Why would you test elderberry on healthy people, if what you really want to know, is what it does in sick people?:

http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/articles/elderberry---a-clinicalperspective.html


Elderberry—A Clinical Perspective

by Dimitri Papadimitriou, Ph.D.
03/09/2009
Elderberry, Sambucus nigra, the common elder is found in several regional varieties as a group of similar species such as American elder (black elder), Chinese elder and Mexican elder. Elderberries have long been used in food, wines and liquors. Flavonoids including quercetin are believed to be the active health-promoting principals; albeit, the exact nature of these active principals is yet to be determined. Four anthocyanins have been isolated from elderberry extract all with cyanidine aglycon. Absorption studies demonstrate these anthocyanins are effectively absorbed by humans and exhibit a relative short half life (one to two hours) in the blood.1

Interestingly the Sambucus species contain also plant lectins (glucoproteins) that have hemagglutinin characteristics, which may exert antiviral effects. There are two mechanisms by which lectins may exert antiviral activity—deactivating viral sialidase, the enzyme the virus produces to cleave to the cell surface; or by direct biding to the virus and inactivating it.

Although there is some in vitro evidence that anthocyanins from elderberries may have direct antiviral activity, this is yet to be proven in humans.2,3 Anthocyanins from berry extracts have been shown in vitro to increase tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-a).4 Also, the flavonoid quercetin, present in elderberries, has been extensively studied for its antiviral properties both in vitro5 and in animal studies,6 as well for its immune-stimulating activity, particularly with interferon.7

By comparison, the antiviral activity of elderberry lectins has been well documented.8,9 The presence of lectins in elderberry have been found in the bark, seeds, and fruit (berries).10,11,12

Clinical evidence of elderberry's antiviral properties has been shown in studies using the patented extract Sambucol. This preparation has been shown in vitro to inhibit hemagglutination and replication of various human influenza strains.13 One placebo-controlled clinical found a threefold acceleration in speed of recovery of patients inflicted by influenza when taking a 30 mL dose of Sambucol.14

In another trial, 60 patients suffering from influenza- like symptoms were given a dose of 15 mL of Sambucol four times a day for five days.15 Again, speed of recovery occurred four days faster than the placebo group.

The potential activation of the immune system by Sambucol was evaluated by examining the blood of 12 healthy subjects after ingestion of the extract; there was an increase in inflammatory cytokines, suggesting it may work by activating the immune system.16,17

Other clinical investigations on elderberry’s effects pertain to the cyanidine glucosides found in the berries; these are well absorbed and appreciably metabolized.18


The effect of anthocyanin berries at 120 mg/d and high dose 400mg/day was investigated in humans for improving blood lipids in healthy human subjects.19 Minimal effects on lipid profile composition, total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL) and high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and triglyceride levels were noted. Elderberry juice, equivalent to 370 mg/d of cyanidine glucosides, was found in an observational study of 80 subjects to aid in weight loss and blood pressure management, and to bolster emotional well-being.20


Elderberry may produce allergic responses in sensitive individuals. Ex vivo studies done with serum from nine patients having such reactions showed a predominant allergen of 33,000 molecular weight protein common to extracts from elderberry pollen and berries, consistent to the chemical profile of proteinacious compounds present in elderberry berries; albeit such incidence is low, 0.6 percent.21


References for "Elderberry—A Clinical Perspective"
1. Sambucus nigra monograph. Alt Med Rev. 2005;10:51.
2. Knox YM et al. Acta Vitol. 2001;45(4):209-15.
3. Valcheva-Kurmanova SV et al. Folia Med. 2006;48(2):11-17.
4. Wang J et al. J Agric Food Chem. 2002;50(15):4183-9.
5. Shahidi F, Naczk M. Phenolics in Food and Nutraceuticals. CRC Press. 2004;pp 363.
6. Davis JM et al. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2008;295:R505-R509.
7. Veckenstedt A et al. Antiviral Res. 1987;7(3):169-78.
8. Baum LG et al. Acta Histochem Suppl. 1990;40:35-8.
9. Nicholls JM et al. Respir Res. 2007;8:73.
10. Mach L et al. Biochem J. 1991;278:667-71.
11. Peumans WJ et al. Carbohydr Res. 1991;213:7-17.
12. Broekoert WF et al. Biochem. 1984;22(1):163-9.
13. Bliah et al. US Patent No. 4742046. Issued May 1998.
14. Zakay-Rones Z et al. J Altern Comp Med. 1995;1(4):361-9.
15. Zakay-Rones et al. J Int Med Res. 2004;32(2):132-40.
16. Barak V et al. Eur Cytokine Netw. 2001;12(2):290-6.
17. Barak V et al. Isr Med Assoc J. 2002;4(11):919-22.
18. Bitch I et al. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2004;42(5):293-300.
19. Murkovic M et al. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004;58(2)244-9.
20. Chrubasik C et al. Phytother Res. 2008;22(7):913-8.
21. Foster-Waldl E et al. Clin Exp Allergy. 2003;33(12):1703-10.



I'll pull some of those articles when I have time.

[Nirvana]

Thank you Hilary for all the wonderful info. Wish sourcing Elderberry was a little easier in this part of the world.

[Nirvana]

Are blackberries similar to elderberry or completely different things?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Are blackberries similar to elderberry or completely different things?www.google.com :D

[Nirvana]

Different things :p

I do see blackberries around here....in the shops...not in the wild :D

[magical1]

Hey there

I went looking for some Sambucol in your neck of the woods... to no avail. I reckon you should order some off of www.healthpost.co.nz (http://www.healthpost.co.nz)

After we have had some discussion as to how people rate the stuff. I've never used it personally.

[Ceres]

Oh interesting. I actually have an elderberry plant in my garden but didn't know what to use it for.

[Nirvana]

Hey there

I went looking for some Sambucol in your neck of the woods... to no avail. I reckon you should order some off of www.healthpost.co.nz (http://www.healthpost.co.nz)

After we have had some discussion as to how people rate the stuff. I've never used it personally.

You meant this for me Magical? ;)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Oh interesting. I actually have an elderberry plant in my garden but didn't know what to use it for.

http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showpost.php?p=2453&postcount=2

[Barefoot]

Bear in mind though that a bottle of sambucol is very expensive for what it is and will only last one person 2-4 days when they really need it and for the same price you could easily make 5 to 10 times as much tincture yourself from dried elderberries at home.
I suggest trying ebay or check out home home brewing stores for dried elderberries if you cannot find any yourself and get making some tincture.
I am estimating i should be able to get at least 2 litres of tincture form a 500g bag of dried elderberries judging by how much was left after my first batch using the 1/3 elderberries to 2/3 of vodka by volume method.

[Seaweed]

I went looking for some Sambucol in your neck of the woods... to no avail. I reckon you should order some off of www.healthpost.co.nz (http://www.healthpost.co.nz/)

After we have had some discussion as to how people rate the stuff. I've never used it personally.

A couple of winters ago, both the kids got a flu type thing. I gave one sambucol & one SA to see what happened. The one who got SA got better alot quicker. The one who got Sambucol liked drinking it tho' :giggle:I was incredibly disappointed as it is not cheap either. I found echinacea to be a big flop as well so I do tend to stick to SA myself. Especially since I was not together enuf to harvest any elderberries this year. Despite the fact I have 2 big trees out the back block :bag: I will make an effort to look out for some dried ones & make some tincture to try.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

SA doesn't work for me very well, but if I get the flu, this time, I will try liposomal. In terms of elderberry, the effects for me are absolutely stunning. I can literally feel the tiredness and "crud" feeling retreat and then start up again, so I know when to take the next dose. I write that down, and then make sure I take the next dose 30 minutes before I would have "felt" everything coming back.

:tsk: seaweed, you have no excuse :p

[Seaweed]

I know I don't have an excuse. I kind of wandered past & there were loads of berries & they weren't quite ripe. Then I got side tracked & the next time I looked, they were gone. Have you tried the sambucol stuff MT? I'd be curious to see if it works too for you.

[Nirvana]

Thanks for that tip Barefoot. I was wondering the same thing too. But I am not too keen about the vodka ;)

Let me try some sites for dried elderberry. Herbalcom.com shows they are not available. Haven't tried ebay. I want to have some in hand so that I can try my hand at making tincture.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I've tried Sambucol, but it makes me gag. There is something else in it, which just doesn't agree with me. I've used it, and it didn't have the impact that the tincture I made does. Maybe that's all in the mind :D. I usually do elderberries with brandy. Tastes much nicer. I also get a different taste tincture with the fresh compared to the dry. But it's definitely worth doing.

Nirvana, if you don't want alcohol in it, then once you've made the tincture, you can put it with honey, and gently heat it, never letting it boil or simmer, until all the alcohol is heated off. But you have to do that in small lots, and keep it in the fridge, because it doesn't keep for long that way.

There are lots of different medicinal concoctions you can make.

Because you're from India, this one might appeal to you:

But I only have this recipe with fresh berries unfortunately... but I think it could still work with dried. I'd just use two cups of dried with water and soak them overnight, and then simmer, sort of reconstitute them first... then either strain and use ground spices, or dont' strain and put the whole spices in with it. It's a recipe I think you can bodge. I've done alsorts with it. Even added chinese 5 star instead of cinnamon. Sort of a tamiflu mix. some people also add chilli, but that made it into rocket fuel, and I'm not partial to rocket fuel.

6 cups Elderberries -- fresh*
1/3 cup honey
1/2 teaspoon Ginger (or slices of fresh ginger)
1/4 teaspoon Cinnamon (or a stick of cinnamon)
1 tablespoon lime juice
2 cups vodka (or brandy)

Wash the elderberries, mash them, and juice them through a strainer (if you're using ground spices. If you aren't, then I'd not strain them at this point).

In a quart pan, mix the elderberry juice with the honey, ginger and cinnamon.

Or if you're using whole spices put the whole elderberries with the honey.. heat and mash together, to break up the berries then add the whole ginger and whole cinnamon stick.

Cover and simmer for 35 minutes. Remove from the heat. (If you've used whole spices and ginger, then at this point strain the whole lot and return to clean pan and reheat.

Add the lime juice and vodka (or brandy).

Pour into a bottle, cap and store in the refrigerator for up to one year.

Dosage: At first signs of flu symptoms take 4 tablespoons a day.

the brandy or vodka preserves the medicinal compounds out of the berries and spices, and helps keep it.

If you want to give elderberry to your daughter, and don't want the alcohol, then heat it up a bit before hand, until the alcohol has evaporated...

[Seaweed]

From memory sambucol tasted like bubblegum. It is incredibly sweet too. I will read a label next time I am in the hfs. I went out the back today & looked at my elderberry trees. Not a berry left & hardly any leaves. I googled & no dry elderberries around or elderberry tincture. Just the sambucol stuff. Next year I will try harder.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I emailed you.

[Serephina]

For those in Australia Austral Herbs (http://www.australherbs.com.au) sells dried elderberries.

Nirvana have you tried Mountain Rose herbs? I believe they ship internationally.

[Nirvana]

Hilary, thanks for sharing that recipe. I love Cinnamon and Ginger :D

Just let me get some dried elderberries and I will let you know how it goes. That Sambucol stuff looks expensive and very little to begin with. It would be economical for me to make the tincture.

Serephina, let me look that up. The name sounds very familiar.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I went out the back today & looked at my elderberry trees. Not a berry left & hardly any leaves. I googled & no dry elderberries around or elderberry tincture.

this is why I use bread bags, and bag the best looking bunches in such a way as they have lots of air, but the birds can't get at them. Then when they are properly ripe, I can pick them. The birds take them here, before they are properly ripe anyway... except right at the end of the season when it's as if they've eaten too many, and are distainful of the last ones.

[Nirvana]

The mountain rose herbs site does not sell dried elderberries. They sell it in the form of tincture and extracts. I was hoping to buy some dried elderberries instead. Is this an ok alternative to buy if I don't get dried ones?

[gilima]

am in the U.S. and I usually get the tincture by natures answer - they have one with alchohol and one, that black elderberry a bit sweet with coconut glycerine, they are not as expensive as the sambucol and taste much better, I think less diluted and less "stuff" added. I even gave to my 5 month old baby who had viral bronchiolitis 2 weeks ago. I think it really helped him....

btw, SA doesn't work with one of my daughters either so I got some of the liposomal.....she totally gagged the stuff :giggle:and now won't even look at it .

I usually mix it in some red grape juice for the younger crowd, kind of blends in - color wise - and putting it in a shot glass somehow appeals to them:)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

with liposomal, you are supposed to drop it into water or whatever, not mix, and knock back, as in scull. Otherwise, it tends to stick to the side of the glass and lose some.

[Nirvana]

The mountainroseherbs.com site has run out of elder berries. I am looking for dried ones instead of extracts and found this site http://www.sunstoneherbs.com/dried-herbs.html

Has anyone else used this one before? Is 16 oz enough? I noticed that in that recipe MT posted, it called for fresh elderberries. Are dried ones ok?

Edited to add that I noticed in the recipe Hilary posted, dried ones can work as well but am still wondering if 16 oz dried elder berries are enough or I need more.

[Serephina]

8oz - that's about 250g right? That should be plenty! Dried elderberries will work as well as fresh, but remember that you will need a much smaller quantity of the dry berries than you would if they were fresh.

[Nirvana]

Thanks Serephina!