Sitting on the fence - please help me with my information gathering!

[ZGT Mummy]

OK so I don't even know if this is the right place to post this, however in my baby brained, sleep deprived state I can't really see a better place to put this.

I am still unsure what to do about vaccination. My 4 year old and 2 year old are fully vaccinated and more up to 15 months but my DD who is now 3.5 months hasn't had any at all yet.

I'm really at the beginning of my research, but am finding it really tough to find any time at all to do any research. I find this very stressful as I would feel so hypocritical not vaccinating without being informed, just as bad as vaccinating without being fully informed IMO.

I find I am constantly fighting against my desire to DO soemthing to protect my children, and at the moment I feel that not vaccinating is doing NOTHING. Purely because I just don't feel confident enough in my ability to prevent illness and nurse my children adequately if they do become sick.

I NEED HELP!!!!

I thought I might start a thread of my own and start asking all the questions that come to me in the dark hours when it's all festering in my head and driving me insane with this most impossible of decisions.

I am lucky enough to have a GP who is "happy" for me not to vaccinate so long as it's an informed decision (totally agree with that). But of course any questions I ask of him will get a pro-vaccination reponse, albeight a diplomatic one.

So here are some of the many questions to come, I appreciate any answers!

1. We talk about building a natural immunity which is better and longer lasting than vaccination. What do I do with my boys then? They have been vaccinated to 15 months so prevented from developing a natural immunity. Given that the childhood diseases are better to be caught at a younger age, would I be putting them at danger of complications if they contracted a disease given that they are getting older? Should I continue vaccination with them seeing as I've already started? What are the implications/issues of not continuing with their schedule?

2. My 4 year old is due for his next vaccinations, however I heard that the MMR at this stage is a double up on the 15 month ones that are just to catch anyone who missed the 15 month ones. Can anyone confirm this?

3. I'm SLOWLY reading Just a Little Prick and Investigate Before You Vaccinate and somewhere in one of them it talks about Vitamin C being the magic cure-all. How true is this? Does this apply to all diseases, viral or bacterial? What kind of doses are we talking about? How beneficial would it be to take Vit C daily as a preventer? I'm not so worried about the standard colds and flus that go round each year, my kids get a few a year and quite frankly I like them to get a few to help strengthen their immune system. What I am worried about is the diseases/illnesses that are vaccinated for. For example how successful is Vit C in treating meningitis?

4. I understand there are homeopathic vaccinations. How successful are these? Given that the theory behind homeopathy is like treating like, how can this be reconciled with giving a healthy child a homeopathic vaccination?

5. Are there any vaccinations that aren't as "bad" as others? I am aware that I need to look at each disease and vaccination separately and assess individually. Are there any diseases that I should be more aware of?

6. How do you get over the all-consuming fear and anxiety if you don't vaccinate. I'm an anxious person by nature and it's almost got to the point where I'm having mini panic attacks thinking about the enormity of all this. I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. I honestly can't even catch my breath if I think about this, rather distressing!

7. What can I do to keep my kids as healthy as possible so that they're at a lesser chance of contracting any of the "nasties"? Obviously nutrition is important, but my kids are fussy, DS2 is an allergy child so his diet is limited anyway, neither of them eat veges, very little fruit too. I've got them on an immune tonic from my naturopath and a vit and mineral supplement from the health shop, but I really don't feel confident that they are well nourished enough to fight these bugs.

8. I am breastfeeding DD and plan to till she self weans (but ideally not till after 2 years old). What else should I be doing for her, given that she is the unvaccinated one. Should I be taking anything myself to pass to her through my milk? Should I be giving anything to her directly (which I am uncomfortable doing given our allergy history I am reluctant to let anything but breastmilk pass her lips right now!)?

9. How big a part does stress play in the health of their immune system? Things are a bit "off" in our house at the moment so plenty of stress. How much will this affect them?

I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions - there was one that I thought of a moment ago but forgot by the time I got to typing it!

I appreciate any help anyone can give.

thanks.

[ZGT Mummy]

OK just remembered the other questions...

10. Why send the unvaccinated child home if there is an outbreak of something, say measles, when I thought we'd want to expose them in order for them to develop immunity? If there's an outbreak of measles in a preschool, surely it would be better for the child to get or at least be exposed to measles at that age, rather than send them home and have them not exposed till much later in life when it could create complications?

[Seaweed]

I'd suggest you read thru the sections here on the vaccine diseases & the vaccines themselves. Find out what is in the vaxes. Work out what nutritional factors contribute to the diseases. Read the sections on nutrition & the immune system. Any answers I give you will just be my opinion. It is really a decision you need to be on secure ground with yourself. I'm over 8 years into this & I still learn something new every day. I've yet to come across anything which has made me feel I made the wrong decision.

[Serephina]

Wow, that's a lot of questions! I agree with Seaweed, the Health, Nutrition and Immune System (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13) forum would be a great place to start reading. I understand that it all seems very overwhelming at the moment due to the sheer volume of information, but it's really important that you do your own reading and weigh things in your own mind.


I find I am constantly fighting against my desire to DO soemthing to protect my children, and at the moment I feel that not vaccinating is doing NOTHING. Purely because I just don't feel confident enough in my ability to prevent illness and nurse my children adequately if they do become sick.

Why do you feel the need to do something? To look at it in another way, would you have your children's' tonsils removed because they *might* become a problem later on? Perhaps you could spend some time learning how to care for your children when they are ill rather than just stressing over "what-ifs".


How do you get over the all-consuming fear and anxiety if you don't vaccinate. I'm an anxious person by nature and it's almost got to the point where I'm having mini panic attacks thinking about the enormity of all this. I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. I honestly can't even catch my breath if I think about this, rather distressing!

It helps to define what you are actually afraid of and address those fears on an individual basis. Are you afraid your children might get a vaccine preventable disease? What would happen if they did?

Keep in mind that no vaccine is 100% effective and there are plenty of bugs out there that there are no vaccines for.

If I were you I would also examine the risks of vaccinating children with a family history of allergies.

[Barefoot]

Hi, you say you are an anxious person by nature and have mini panic attacks.

There is is very good drug free method to treat this yourself which i have reviewed and does work if you apply the methods.
Click on the link to subscribe for the free email courses from this site.
http://www.panicaway.com/index.php?hop=sk030&gclid=CPaXjLeJt5oCFYVM5QodKX7lcw

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

ZGT Mummy, I tried to private message you my answer, but it was too long to send. Rather than split it up, can I email it to you?

[justine]

6. How do you get over the all-consuming fear and anxiety if you don't vaccinate.

I think that some of us still think like this occasionally. There is so much pressure and the expectation is high. When ever I think like this all I do is search for parents personal stories of their vaccine damaged children and it always puts things in perspective for me. (they are not hard to find) Go to you tube and type in MMR, look for Harriet Moore's story (about 9 mins) Whatever you do dont watch it late at night after a large glass of wine as you will blub - alot.

Hats off to Hilary Butler as she must have learnt of lots of little Harriet Moore's. I don't know how you do it Hilary I get too upset reading the stories of damaged kids. Do you cry?

Love Justine

[ZGT Mummy]

Thank you for your replies. Yes please Hilary, I'm assuming that seeing as you're an administrator that you have my email address?

You're right Serephina, I do feel completely overwhelmed by the sheer bulk of knowledge required to make an informed decision. It really scares me that I don't know so much. I don't even know where to start, but yes I will have a look under those headings you've suggested when I get a moment. I've always conformed so I don't even have a basic knowledge to build from. I'm literally starting from scratch. I guess I am just panicing (and thanks for that link I'll have a look soon) as I feel if I don't vaccinate I need to know how to protect and care for them NOW, not in 6 months time when I finally have a more fuller understanding on things.

And yes also right that I need to understand how to care for them better, both in prevention and also once they are sick. I do feel that I limit the conventional drugs I do give them anyway, though still do turn to things like pamol for high fevers etc. I think if I had a deeper understanding of alternatives such as homeopathy and natural remedies then I would be more confident. To that end I have an appointment with a naturopath on Monday to go through this issue with her. I have no idea of her stance on vaccination to be honest, but she does a lot of work in my area with all different children based groups so am hoping that she'll have some good info for me.

I know that I have to do my own research and make my own decisions, I guess I'm just also interested in what decisions others have made and WHY. I just feel that will help me get a better handle on things.

Really the biggest issue right now is time. Right now my DD is just waking up so I really need to go get her before she screams the house down and wakes up DS2. I just don't have time to get things done day-to-day let alone spend hours doing research. And yes I know that it should be my priority, but honestly I don't have anytime to myself, I'm on the go from first thing in the morning till last thing at night, then also awake thru the night with night feeding and my boys don't sleep thru all the time either.

I'm just so shattered with everything that this is just too huge for me but that's making me anxious because I feel I need to be doing this now. Yes I'm scared that she'll catch something that I could've vaccinated for. And I'm not thinking something like measles or mumps as they don't scare me so much but am terrified of meningitis, polio, dyptheria, hepatitis, the list goes on. In fact I think MMR is the only one I'm confident not giving her.

Right I'm waffling now which I'm good at doing, saying so much and never getting to the point. Must dash, will try to get back later and have a better look.

Thanks!

[ZGT Mummy]

Oh thanks justine, will go have a look soon.

[3monkeys]

ZGT Mummy, I can totally relate to where you are at. All my children are unvaccinated and I made the decision while pregnant with my first child based on instinct and a "your injecting your child with aborted fetus" phamplet.

I also didnt read a lot in the first year or so, just little bits that came my way. But my gut instinct was enough to stop me from starting to vaccinate. Sometimes I would question myself but it always came back to if I was sitting in the Drs and that vaccine was about to go into my childs body I would find that more devasting that I would not vaccinating.

As for the fear. Thats a time thing I think. It took me a good 3-4 years to stop worrying. I was never afraid of meningitis etc. Have a look at the stats and you will find its riskier driving to the dairy for some milk than it is dying from, or complications from some of the diseases. It really is a personal thing. Even the way we read the info can be different. I personally think the biggest thing we can do as parents is turn off the ourside influence and listen to that little voice inside you. In all respects. When my child is ill I know just from looking and listening etc how I can help them.

I probably make no sense, I am very good at that, but the more you read and the more you process the more you will discover whats right for you. But dont make a decision based on fear. Its not the right reason. Be it fear of a disease or fear of a vaccine reaction. Also wellness in children is more than a few vaccinations. Its a wholistic thing that comes from many different facets. So start learning what wellness means to you and your family and set about acheiving that.

The biggest thing you can do though is beleive in yourself and listen to that voice.

[Spy]

I guess I am just panicing (and thanks for that link I'll have a look soon) as I feel if I don't vaccinate I need to know how to protect and care for them NOW, not in 6 months time when I finally have a more fuller understanding on things.

Here it is. You are scared because you think you KNOW that vaccines protect and without vaccines they are unprotected, is this where your fears come from? Because in reality you don't need to do anything other than what you're already doing NOW to PROTECT - this is a thoroughly flawed vaccine philosophy which was originally built on an assumption and has been a huge marketing tool ever since.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

ACtually, I think it will post here. Perhaps to do it here would be okay...



1. We talk about building a natural immunity which is better and longer lasting than vaccination. What do I do with my boys then? They have been vaccinated to 15 months so prevented from developing a natural immunity. Given that the childhood diseases are better to be caught at a younger age, would I be putting them at danger of complications if they contracted a disease given that they are getting older? The risk of complications as they get older, actually isn't a factor of age alone. My husband got Mumps at 63, at the same time as our two children. He fared best of the three. His diet is also the best.


Should I continue vaccination with them seeing as I've already started?Since you have a sympathetic doctor, why not do titres, and find out what their immunity is like? However, remember that titres doesn't take account of long term memory immunity for some diseases.


What are the implications/issues of not continuing with their schedule?Whatever antibodies they have, I guess they keep, but bear in mind, kids who get whooping cough, are often those kids who have antibodies :lol: the implications are pretty much the same as for those who don't vaccinate at all, in that, you do the same as the rest of us who don't vaccinate, and make sure their diet is good, they get plenty of sleep and exercise, they are NOT overweight, and they have a stress free balanced attitude to life.



2. My 4 year old is due for his next vaccinations, however I heard that the MMR at this stage is a double up on the 15 month ones that are just to catch anyone who missed the 15 month ones. Can anyone confirm this?Yes, it's a double up. Again, ask your doctor to do titres. if you child has antibodies, then your child is one of the ones who didn't need a double up. If your child doesn't have antibodies, that actually doesn't mean he doesn't have immunity. All that means is that they don't have a test which can define memory immunity. again, not having circulating antibodies, don't tell you if the child has memory immunity.


3. I'm SLOWLY reading Just a Little Prick and Investigate Before You Vaccinate and somewhere in one of them it talks about Vitamin C being the magic cure-all.

U-uh... I've never said that vitamin C is a magic cure all. I've said that vitamin c is very important, especially for bacterial-toxin mediated diseases. it's very important for all infections, since a person who has not enough vitamin C, has an innate immunity which doesn't function at 100%. And the less vitamin C you have, the lower the innate immune function... until you die, usually of overwhelming infections.

That was, after all, the end result of Captain Cook's sailors, until he figured out how to prevent it.


How true is this? the second book "From One Prick to Another" Answers some of these questions, particularly in the chapter on Sepsis.


Does this apply to all diseases, viral or bacterial?Yes, but it's most crucial for bacterial diseases, because monocytes, eosinophils, macrophages and lymphocytes rely on vitamin C for 'petrol'. When they haven't got enough, they simply stand still. And that is the ultimate end of scurvy.


What kind of doses are we talking about?that depends on a person's diet, and existing immune system. In our house everyone uses different doses at different times.


How beneficial would it be to take Vit C daily as a preventer? I think a much better preventer is an overall good diet with lots of fruit and veges, minimal sugar and minimal refined flour. A traditional diet, based on traditional foods (forget the margarine and other 'stuff'....) with plenty of garlic and onions in various forms; home made chicken soup and bone broth based soups... and you won't need much in the way of extra vitamin C for day to day needs, unless like me, you have an immunodeficiency.


I'm not so worried about the standard colds and flus that go round each year, my kids get a few a year and quite frankly I like them to get a few to help strengthen their immune system. Suscepitbility to colds and flu is much more likely to be a result of vitamin D deficiency, than a vitamin C deficiency if your diet it okay. Why? Because it's very hard to get vitamin D from diet in the winter, unless you eat a lot of oily fish, if your children don't get around an hour of sun in the middle of the day in winter. And with the temperatures that we are having right now, who'd want to strip off? so eat oily fish, or use proper Cod liver oil, and use a D3 vitamin D supplement, and colds and the flu won't be an issue.


What I am worried about is the diseases/illnesses that are vaccinated for. For example how successful is Vit C in treating meningitis?The theory to that is in my second book, but the reality to that is that we don't know, because if your child got meningitis, and you asked the hospital to use vitamin C they would have you committed to the psych ward... even though all the evidence they need to try it is in their own literature. vitamin C is sort of like the Pelagra of old, which they thought was infectious for eons until it dawned on some iconoclast that it was an.. um... :duh: vitamin deficiency...


4. I understand there are homeopathic vaccinations. How successful are these? they are not.


Given that the theory behind homeopathy is like treating like, how can this be reconciled with giving a healthy child a homeopathic vaccination?It can't. it's an oxymoron.


5. Are there any vaccinations that aren't as "bad" as others? as far as I'm concerned, they're all as bad as one another, but each one would be for a different reason.


I am aware that I need to look at each disease and vaccination separately and assess individually. Are there any diseases that I should be more aware of?I believe that a mother should make it her business to know about ALL diseases. That way, you're never caught out.


6. How do you get over the all-consuming fear and anxiety if you don't vaccinate. My primary fear and anxiety about the kids getting sick, was more to do with the provaccine zealots pointing the finger at me... but then, as the children got all the diseases, and my knowledge of dealing with them came into play... and they got over them really easily (in fact, better than their vaccinated peers ) I realised that any fear and anxiety I had, was a product of my own lack of belief in the ability of the immune system of a properly fed and rested child to do what it was designed to do.


I'm an anxious person by nature and it's almost got to the point where I'm having mini panic attacks thinking about the enormity of all this.The problem here, is your anxiety, not the disease. But there are some stresses that we all just have to live with, so it's a case of learning to manage them.

And I usually say to someone who is ultra anxious:

a) Either you have to deal with the anxiety, or
b) Vaccinate your children.

If necessary, do it on a delayed schedule, if that will help your anxiety and allow you to give yourself permission to wait awhile.

Why vaccinate your children? Because children do not cope well with parents who constantly hover, wash, and are overprotective, ad nauseum, and that's usually the result if parents can't overcome their own phobias about disease. The children get stressed, they hate it; their immune systems crash, and ... they get sick. No suprises there, since stress releases so many adrenal hormones, the function of which is to supress the immune system. Which is why stress is the biggest disease driver of all epigenetic effects.

So ... if in the final analysis, the only thing it will take, to have a relaxed household is to vaccinate your children, their immune systems might have a better chance of handling the short term issues of vaccinations (if they are fed properly and supplemented before and after vaccinations) than they would handle the next 20+ years of any parent being on constant overprotective tenderhooks.


I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. I honestly can't even catch my breath if I think about this, rather distressing!

You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't, because if you vaccinate, you will worry about what the vaccines will do to your child.

Seriously, the issue here is your anxiety, because if you are worried about disease, it won't be the only thing you are worried about. I know Been there and done that. But I'm not by nature a worry wort. Only conditioned so, in certain areas, owing to my upbringing. Generally, I've deconditioned myself now :D


7. What can I do to keep my kids as healthy as possible so that they're at a lesser chance of contracting any of the "nasties"? Obviously nutrition is important, but my kids are fussy, DS2 is an allergy child so his diet is limited anyway, neither of them eat veges, very little fruit too.



I've got them on an immune tonic from my naturopath and a vit and mineral supplement from the health shop, but I really don't feel confident that they are well nourished enough to fight these bugs.Do you think that their main problem might be vitamin D??? Are you a parent who 100% adheres to the slip slap slop nonsense?


8. I am breastfeeding DD and plan to till she self weans (but ideally not till after 2 years old).
Fantastic. Wow. Not too many of your more relaxed peers could say that. That is the very best of starts your child could possibly have, because breastmilk is a whole immune system of its own.

What else should I be doing for her, given that she is the unvaccinated one? Try to make sure that she doesn't grow up with the food pickiness that your two other ones have, though they may well "pollute" her... "If they don't eat it, why should I?" Generally, we didn't have junk in the house, so they had to eat what was there. Generally, kids follow their parents in what they will or won't eat.


. Should I be taking anything myself to pass to her through my milk?Nutrition is caught, not taught. You eat, as you know you should. they will eventually pick up on that. And if not, you've done your best.


Should I be giving anything to her directly (which I am uncomfortable doing given our allergy history I am reluctant to let anything but breastmilk pass her lips right now!)?No. Just eat small amounts of everything, because breastmilk is unique in that it presents food "particles" to the gut of a child in such a way as to prevent allergy to them.

(I'm just reading up about all this... and it's fascinating.)


9. How big a part does stress play in the health of their immune system?Hugely. Stress is THE THE THE biggest issue when it comes to infection. it's usually the one thing that messes with my physical health! I'm sure most of us here, know about "stress". It goes with being a mother.


Things are a bit "off" in our house at the moment so plenty of stress. How much will this affect them?Depends on the resilience of the child, but in general stress for long extended periods of time is detrimental to everyone but mostly children, because they don't have the emotional tools to deal with stress logically, particularly if they don't understand why there is a lot of stress in your present situation.

But if the stress is solely because you can't decide about the vaccination issue, then see a) and b) above. Again.


10. Why send the unvaccinated child home if there is an outbreak of something, say measles, when I thought we'd want to expose them in order for them to develop immunity?Because the Health Department is under the delusion that the unvaccinated children will give it to all the vaccinated protected children ????????? your guess is as good as ours. If vaccination works??? And.... anyway, whose to say that it's always the unvaccinated that get it? In the recent outbreak in Dunedin, it wasn't only unvaccinated children who got it. And none of them got it really seriously or died, did they? It would have been headline news if they had.


If there's an outbreak of measles in a preschool, surely it would be better for the child to get or at least be exposed to measles at that age, rather than send them home and have them not exposed till much later in life when it could create complications?

True, but then you are unusual, in that you are possessed with common sense and logic which is missing from the minds of medical experts....

even if you say you are anxious.

I think, that given more time, and more reading, you may well find a way to rid yourself of your anxiousness about disease, and maybe other things too.

You know, motherhood is a journey, and we all, as parents have moments of serious panic and anxiety. It goes with the territory, and if we didn't I'd think there was something wrong with me, and you.

But knowledge can be power, and it can be all that's necessary. it took a while for me to get myself together, but now, I realise that the problem was me, not "disease". having said that, I do know of some non-vaxxers who have never stressed about it in their lives....

But... as Justine says... there are those who vaccinate, and are dished up with a huge plate of stress.

The purpose of this board is to try to help everyone get through the crunch situations they have.

But the bottom line is, that if to give yourself some sanity, you need to vaccinate, then lthat may be the best option. Only you will know that....

[kiah]

It really is a stressful decision.....but mostly because of the 'fear' we are fed - "if you don't vaccinate your child will die!" But you know what helps? Reading and researching.....
1. The vaccines really aren't as effective as we'd like to think, so even if we did vaccinate there's still a HUGE chance they'd get the disease,
2. It's not a 'one-shot-fix', the vaccine immunity wares off after several years - so life long shots are needed,
3. Check out how many people in Australia get diseases each year - I think last year there were about 14,000 cases of whooping cough.....and how many died from it??

An example of how the media feeds fear is chickenpox, the vaccine is only very recent and already there's a huge fear of chickenpox because "it kills you know??!"
Of all the cases of chickenpox I have personally seen NONE were severe by any means and none had lasting damage. I had it when I was seventeen and the worst thing was 'how embarrassing, I hope no one see's me!' :D
Keep reading, knowledge really is power and the only way to overcome your fear is to KNOW what to do *IF* your child does become sick. :)

[Barefoot]

Imagine a fearsome lioness protecting her young.


I have 3 non vaxxed kids who have never been to doctors for anything and seem so much more healthier and stronger than vaxxed kids.
I know i have made the right choice my kids are proof of it and when you truly know the utter corruption, fraud and genocide that goes on at big pharma you will run a mile from them and be prepared to do anything to protect your children from them.
I would suffer from anxiety if i had vaxxed due to the worry of long term damage and weakning their immune systems for life.
I have no fear of mumps, measles etc.

[ZGT Mummy]

I'm finally back after being MIA for awhile. Actually I've been coming in occasionally and reading up on things to help increase my knowledge.

Firstly addressing my fear - it comes down to not having the confidence in myself to optimise my family's health and to deal with ills and chills effectively as they arise. I guess I'll just have to do more info gathering and post loads of threads on here asking for help! I only fear disease because I don't know how to treat it without resorting to conventional drugs, so yes knowledge is power!

I went onto You Tube as you suggested Justine and OMG I now could never bring myself to allow anymore vaccinations for me or my children. I am so saddened by all the stories and I couldn't bear to see the light leave my little girl's eyes, it's bringing me to tears just typing this now! I feel very heavy in my heart for these poor children and their poor parents who thought they were doing the right thing for their kids. I now count myself very very lucky that nothing serious happened to my boys as a result of their vaccinations. I say nothing serious as they still may have been negatively impacted in some way that isn't overly apparent, especially DS2 who is my allergy boy. Perhaps his allergies wouldn't be what they are today if he hadn't been vaccinated? I know he still would've had issues as his allergies showed up before his 6 week jabs but still makes me wonder if he may have grown out of his issues by now?

Wow, I have so many more questions to ask you all. You are all so knowledgeable, I can only hope to be half as knowledgeable as you all are! So I hope you can all bear with me as I ask what may seem like stupid questions. I can be naive at the best of times!

So onto this round of questions:


ask your doctor to do titres. if you child has antibodies, then your child is one of the ones who didn't need a double up. If your child doesn't have antibodies, that actually doesn't mean he doesn't have immunity. All that means is that they don't have a test which can define memory immunity. again, not having circulating antibodies, don't tell you if the child has memory immunity

Is there then any point doing titres if the results may not tell me anything at all? What exactly would I do with that information? I mean would it change anything? I am focusing on improving my childrens' immune systems through diet and supplementation, how would that change if I found out they are immune to certain things? It wouldn't would it as having immunity to one disease doesn't rule out lack of immunity to another. Sorry a bit long winded, I'm just not sure what the titres would tell me and what they would change?



What kind of doses are we talking about?that depends on a person's diet, and existing immune system. In our house everyone uses different doses at different times

So how do I know what to give everyone? Where do I start? How do I figure it out? What signs will tell me that everyone is getting enough or not?

And while we're on the topic of Vit C, I have been looking at the Vit C thread and see that we should be taking Sodium Ascorbate, not any other version of Vit C. Where would I get this from (reasonably priced as we can't even afford to pay the mortgage at the mo!)? I understand basically the reason why SA is the way to go, but are the others really that bad? If there's plenty of salt in our diet then it's OK?

Also, is there such thing as too much Vit C? Or does your body just rid itself of the excess? I ask as someone on another forum said that a friend of hers ended up with kidney issues (failure or cysts or something like that, can't remember) because she was taking very high doses of Vit C. Is there a limit? How high is too high?


I think a much better preventer is an overall good diet with lots of fruit and veges, minimal sugar and minimal refined flour. A traditional diet, based on traditional foods (forget the margarine and other 'stuff'....) with plenty of garlic and onions in various forms; home made chicken soup and bone broth based soups... and you won't need much in the way of extra vitamin C for day to day needs, unless like me, you have an immunodeficiency.

The naturopath I went to was doubtful that we could get all the nutrients we need from our diet as our soils are much more depleted these days than in the past, therefore the quality of our produce is not so good. Thoughts on this?

Minimal refined flour - my kids eat toast and sandwiches every day, what would I replace them with?

Traditional diet - whose tradition? I am part chinese so our traditional foods are probably not the same as yours? Although we do have a lot of broth soups which I am now making some more of after reading this, however DS2 won't have a bar of them, neither will hubby. DS1 will as long as there's just the soup (no obvious signs of meat or veges) and rice noodles.

Forget the margarine and other stuff - what do you mean by other stuff and why forget them (obvious question I guess but just want to confirm thoughts). We can't use butter due to allergies so it's marg or nothing.

I am trying to up the garlic and onion but again if it's not hidden completely then they pick it out and won't eat it.

Our diet is soooo restricted anyway due to the numerous food allergies I cater to it's just getting harder and harder!

How would I know if one of us has an immunodeficiency? Do I remember rightly from your book that you didn't find out till adulthood? How would I know if I or my kids were?


Suscepitbility to colds and flu is much more likely to be a result of vitamin D deficiency, than a vitamin C deficiency if your diet it okay. Why? Because it's very hard to get vitamin D from diet in the winter, unless you eat a lot of oily fish, if your children don't get around an hour of sun in the middle of the day in winter. And with the temperatures that we are having right now, who'd want to strip off? so eat oily fish, or use proper Cod liver oil, and use a D3 vitamin D supplement, and colds and the flu won't be an issue.

I have addressed this with a Vit D supplement as due to allergies we can't have fish and I am yet to find an oil supplement that the manufacturers can 100% guarantee me are protein free. They all cover their backsides by saying 99%


Are you a parent who 100% adheres to the slip slap slop nonsense?


OK hand up, yes I am - or should I say was? So what should I be doing then. The sun is so harsh it's so easy for kids to get burned which I am assuming is not what you are advocating. So in summer I'm guessing some time in the sun with no protection in the early morn or late afternoon? What exactly would you suggest? In winter, well we get outside, but obviously not naked!


Why vaccinate your children? Because children do not cope well with parents who constantly hover, wash, and are overprotective, ad nauseum, and that's usually the result if parents can't overcome their own phobias about disease. The children get stressed, they hate it; their immune systems crash, and ... they get sick. No suprises there, since stress releases so many adrenal hormones, the function of which is to supress the immune system. Which is why stress is the biggest disease driver of all epigenetic effects.

So ... if in the final analysis, the only thing it will take, to have a relaxed household is to vaccinate your children, their immune systems might have a better chance of handling the short term issues of vaccinations (if they are fed properly and supplemented before and after vaccinations) than they would handle the next 20+ years of any parent being on constant overprotective tenderhooks.

I don't tend to hover - I can be too far the other way, "oh you'll be OK don't worry it's not much blood" lol! BUT the one thing that I do hover about is food allergies. This is because my son's life is constantly on the line, even at home as DS1 eats dairy which could kill DS2. So we are very strict with hand and face washing, food only at the table, no games with food etc etc.

Vaccinating will not make it a relaxed household. The stresses here are not vaccination related, but we are working on them, may take some time but I am hopeful! In fact after watching the You Tube videos I think vaccinating would cause huge stresses whilst I sat and watched my kids wondering if something bad was going to happen.



I am breastfeeding DD and plan to till she self weans (but ideally not till after 2 years old). Fantastic. Wow. Not too many of your more relaxed peers could say that. That is the very best of starts your child could possibly have, because breastmilk is a whole immune system of its own.

I have always been pro extended breastfeeding, even being called Breastapo on another forum. Sadly I've never made it to the 2 year mark, 16 months was my best with DS1 but that was only interrupted by my pregnancy with #2 (he self weaned when I was 5 months) so this time I'm determined to keep it going for as long as she wants it but I'll be pushing her past the 2 year mark if I can.

On this forum, someone commented that whilst breastfeeding protects against a whole array of illnesses, it doesn't protect against whooping cough. How true is this statement? What kind of protection does BF give?

And while we're on the BF topic - given that immunity is passed from mum to baby via BM, what is the effect on this if mum has been vaccinated and has not developed natural immunity? Is the non-vax'd child of a vax'd mum in a different position to the non-vax'd child of a non-vax'd mum?


Try to make sure that she doesn't grow up with the food pickiness that your two other ones have, though they may well "pollute" her... "If they don't eat it, why should I?" Generally, we didn't have junk in the house, so they had to eat what was there. Generally, kids follow their parents in what they will or won't eat.

I think I am a reasonably good eater. I generally eat anything that's put in front of me (or that I put in front of myself). Due to allergies we actually eat reasonably healthy in comparison to many other families out there (though that may not be the best comparison to make I guess). I love my fruit and veges and always eat them in front of the kids. Most things we eat are made from scratch or close to it. No packaged or convenience meals here, except for hubby with some of his stuff which he will sometimes share with DS1 on the weekends. Hubby knows what he should be doing but chooses not to. I "make" him eat all the veges I serve him but I can't really do much about all the junk he eats except to try to get him not to do it in front of the kids. We do our fair share of baking though so we do have homemade goodies on a regular basis (muffins, bikkies, slices etc) - don't know whether this is still junk in disguise? We don't have junk in the house but GRRRRR my mother is atrocious at feeding my kids rubbish. I dropped the boys at her place the other day for 1/2 hour at 10am and came back to find them munching on a bowl each (yes a flamin' bowl) of lollies and chips! I tried to explain to her how important nutrition is etc etc but made the mistake of saying that Natural Confectionary lollies are better than others and plain potato chips are better than twisties so now she thinks that's license to give them junk as long as it comes from certain manufacturers!


No. Just eat small amounts of everything, because breastmilk is unique in that it presents food "particles" to the gut of a child in such a way as to prevent allergy to them.

(I'm just reading up about all this... and it's fascinating.)

I would be interested to hear what you've learned on this. Allergy is the bane of my existence and I like to think I'm quite up on things in this area (though in reality I know I'm not!!). For instance I know for a fact that my son was reacting to certain foods I was eating as he tested positive to certain allergens before he even started solids. Theories abound I know and there are good arguments on all sides. I am currently on a very restricted diet while I was preg and now while BF DD in the hope that she will not develop allergies as my son has. We are with the top immunologist in the country (my opinion) and this is his advice so we're going with it in the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary.

Having said that I didn't restrict my diet with my other 2 and I have one with multiple allergies to foods and environmentals and one with no known allergies at all. So who knows! Genetics at work!

Another thread was talking about tap water. How bad is it really? Should I be giving them bottled water? We can't afford to buy bottled water though so are there any cost effective alternatives? DD hasn't had water yet as she is exclusively BF but obivously will at some stage. My boys have water bottles that are always being topped up from the tap.

I've been thinking about tetanus. How do you avoid this? I remember when I was little thinking my mum was nuts when she used to tell me to squeeze the blood out of a wound and let it bleed, but is this how you reduce chances of getting tetanus? A naturopath told me that lednum was the homeopathic remedy for tetanus. Is this effective? Is it something I should just have in my first aid kit? Do I administer it for any cuts, wounds, grazes etc or just specific ones. What wounds are more likely to invite tetanus? What are the signs of tetanus and if signs are showing is it too late for alternative therapies and is it straight to the dr?

I would really love to develop a sheet with diseases, signs, treatments and when to seek conventional medical help and what conventional medical help to seek. Is anyone able to help me with some info on the more common illnesses to start my sheet off?

Right, I've been on here far too long, DS2 is amusing himself but that won't last long, DD is due up soon and DS1 is due home from kindy. I still haven't been able to read my books much more in the last few weeks though. I guess that's where some of my anxiety is stemming from too.

Oh and I went to that naturopath who didn't say but did seem anti-vax and this is what she has got for us:

Echinacea/Thuja Comp - a homeobotanical I think
Vit D3
Zinc oral drops
Childrens multi
Probiotic (which I was taking anyway but now giving it to kids too, not DD though as hoping she is getting it through my milk)
I'm also taking an immune pill which has all sorts of things like echinacea, olive leaf etc and Omega 3.

My other naturopath has given me a tonic of hers that the kids are taking which echinacea, red clover, peppermint, licorice, myrrh and a few others I cant remember.

I wonder if we are taking too much stuff? I know some of it is just during the winter months but still it does feel a bit like overkill and the pocket is bone dry as they are all so expensive!

Right DS1 is home, all hell will break loose shortly, will try to come back later tonight!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Firstly addressing my fear - it comes down to not having the confidence in myself to optimise my family's health and to deal with ills and chills effectively as they arise. I guess I'll just have to do more info gathering and post loads of threads on here asking for help! I only fear disease because I don't know how to treat it without resorting to conventional drugs, so yes knowledge is power!Once upon a time, previous generations did know, because they had to. We've forgotten all that, as we've moved into the era of handing over responsibility to 'experts'/


I say nothing serious as they still may have been negatively impacted in some way that isn't overly apparent, especially DS2 who is my allergy boy. Perhaps his allergies wouldn't be what they are today if he hadn't been vaccinated? I know he still would've had issues as his allergies showed up before his 6 week jabs but still makes me wonder if he may have grown out of his issues by now?As you say, that's impossible to know. You can't cut a child in half, vaccinate one half, and leave the other natural, to see what the difference will be.


Wow, I have so many more questions to ask you all.

:eek: so I see :D and it will take me a year to answer them all :giggle:



You are all so knowledgeable, I can only hope to be half as knowledgeable as you all are! So I hope you can all bear with me as I ask what may seem like stupid questions. I can be naive at the best of times!it's not possible to be knowledgeable enough. what scares me most is when I find I know more than doctors do about certain things. :rolleyes:


Is there then any point doing titres if the results may not tell me anything at all? What exactly would I do with that information?

I always suggest this, if a person wants to play the system at their own game. Chances are, titres could show. If so, then doctors have to accept that as immunity, which takes the wind out of their sails. if not, you're in no worse a negotiation position than you were before.


I mean would it change anything? Only if titres were there. It gets them off your back.


I am focusing on improving my childrens' immune systems through diet and supplementation, how would that change if I found out they are immune to certain things? It wouldn't would it as having immunity to one disease doesn't rule out lack of immunity to another. Sorry a bit long winded, I'm just not sure what the titres would tell me and what they would change?You're correct. it changes nothing in terms of what you need to do day by day. But if you "need" to know whether your children are susceptible or not, or if you are bulldozed to vaccinate by someone else, titres are a way of buying time, finding out, and knowing what issues "they" will have. It defines the discussion parameters in situations where any dispute is doctor driven.



So how do I know what to give everyone? Where do I start? How do I figure it out? What signs will tell me that everyone is getting enough or not? A game called trial and error.

first you need to know what the first signs of vitamin C lack are, and that is tiredness, a red line around the gums around the teeth. Some people interpret this as gingivitis, or gum disease, which is actually nothing more than vitamin C deficiency. There are other signs, so google that.

A person's need for vitamin C depends on their immune system; the state of their gut flora; the amount of stress they are under; local ecological toxicities (such as, "I live next to a gas station...." and whether or not there is active infection going on inside their bodies.

we've learned what we need after years of practice, and error.


And while we're on the topic of Vit C, I have been looking at the Vit C thread and see that we should be taking Sodium Ascorbate, not any other version of Vit C. Where would I get this from (reasonably priced as we can't even afford to pay the mortgage at the mo!)? remind me where you are. I have Alzheimers :cool:


I understand basically the reason why SA is the way to go, but are the others really that bad? If there's plenty of salt in our diet then it's OK?If you are using sea salt or decent salt, a bit is okay, but if you are using iodized salt with aluminium free flow agent, toss it.

Calcium Ascorbate IMO, is dangerous. All the doctors in the past who've used and written about vitamin C all use sodium ascorbate, and the reason is simple. The body uses sodium transporters to deal with it, and then, glucose transporters. We know that works. Why mess with other things? This is one reason you get lots of people whining about how vitamin C doesn't work for them. You find they are taking combinations made by "reputable" companies, who always operate on the basis that customers are right, rather than the straight and narrow of what works. And "new" and "improved" always sounds good. Got to put new energy into marketting. Sorry about the sarcasm...


Also, is there such thing as too much Vit C? Or does your body just rid itself of the excess? I ask as someone on another forum said that a friend of hers ended up with kidney issues (failure or cysts or something like that, can't remember) because she was taking very high doses of Vit C. Is there a limit? How high is too high?That sounds like someone was repeating an urban legend and telling porkies actually.

How much are you prepared to read and research yourself, on this issue? Why listen to other people's opinions?

One thing I don't want this site to become is a one stop shop, because if that happens people get used to coming here ( a bit like how they used to go to the doctor, and now a board becomes a different "help desk") so all I'm doing is telling you what I think. when it comes to what you think and what you know, it's best to do much of the work yourself, and then you KNOW because it's driven by your need to know, and finding it out, hammers it into your head much better than being handed it on a plate, and told to swallow it :D

One of the best sites to scrabble around on, is this one
http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/ (http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/)

There is, somewhere on Professor Hemila's website, stuff which details that the issue of kidney stones has been way hyped out of all recognition. There are fewer than a handful of cases, and as this Professor points out, they all had other conditions, which may have either been the primary cause of kidney issues.

in terms of myself, I was warned off vitamin C 25 years ago, because of the spurious kidney stone link, because I had kidney issues. Amazingly, vitamin C, according to my blood tests, improved my kidney function. the doctor was amazed... he said something like, "I wouldn't have tried that!" and my reply was, "Well you can do nothing for me, so what do I have to lose? It worked."



The naturopath I went to was doubtful that we could get all the nutrients we need from our diet as our soils are much more depleted these days than in the past, therefore the quality of our produce is not so good. Thoughts on this?that is true, which is why you have to be careful what produce you buy, where it comes from, and if possible, grow some of your own using organic gardening principles.


Minimal refined flour - my kids eat toast and sandwiches every day, what would I replace them with?If you must eat bread, find a natural bread, with a high % of wholemeal, no soy, and preferably sourdough.


Traditional diet - whose tradition? I am part chinese so our traditional foods are probably not the same as yours? Your traditions, not mine :D But no traditional diet ever included white sugar, white flour, sweets, icecream, etc.... because 150 years ago, those things didn't exist like they do today.


Although we do have a lot of broth soups which I am now making some more of after reading this, however DS2 won't have a bar of them, neither will hubby. then that's their loss.


Forget the margarine and other stuff - what do you mean by other stuff and why forget them (obvious question I guess but just want to confirm thoughts).Margarine is one molecule off plastic, and leads to very bad collagen bonds in terms of cell structure, or as some orthodontists who understand this would say, "Cell walls become like sieves" So if you had functional orthidontistry done, for instance, you would find that it would take far longer to quickly make new bone to fill the jaw sinuses you are prising apart, because cell wall are like sieves, and nutrients and minerals aren't held and used nearly as efficienty.


We can't use butter due to allergies so it's marg or nothing. I use all sorts of things on bread like avocado, pumpkin puree, tahini... there are lots of things which can be used, but would have to take allergies into account.


I am trying to up the garlic and onion but again if it's not hidden completely then they pick it out and won't eat it. Then you'll have to become a food houdini, until such time as your family get real and see how silly they are being.


Our diet is soooo restricted anyway due to the numerous food allergies I cater to it's just getting harder and harder!I bet it is, and if it actually came down to your health, or theirs, I'd just feed whateve they would actually eat, and look after yourself first, and let their health slide. There's only so much of taking horses to water that any sensible parent can stand. I've given up on my younger son. he's a totally lost cause. And he knows I think that. I just shrug and say, "it's your life matey..."


How would I know if one of us has an immunodeficiency? Do I remember rightly from your book that you didn't find out till adulthood? How would I know if I or my kids were?Are your children constantly having infections? The fact that there are allergies already tells me that their immune systems aren't working anywhere near normally. While allergy isn't classified as an immunodeficiency, in my mind it's immunoderangement.


I have addressed this with a Vit D supplement as due to allergies we can't have fish and I am yet to find an oil supplement that the manufacturers can 100% guarantee me are protein free. They all cover their backsides by saying 99%On the other hand, you could just use the sun.... depending on where you live.

Slip, slop, slap.
OK hand up, yes I am - or should I say was? So what should I be doing then. The sun is so harsh it's so easy for kids to get burned which I am assuming is not what you are advocating.

No, if the kids are getting burned, that's silly. Out early in the morning, or later in afternoon, with plenty of exposed skin. In the burn time, long sleeved loose cottong shirts or whatever. But sunscreen has an array of chemicals in it which IMO are potentially more carcinogenic than the sun is.


So in summer I'm guessing some time in the sun with no protection in the early morn or late afternoon? What exactly would you suggest? In winter, well we get outside, but obviously not naked!I get outside naked in the winter :alien: and last night, it was minus 2 :giggle: but during the day, there was an hour at mid-day where the winter sun was warm enough for me to rotisserie spit :D

furthermore, whether you burn or not, has a lot to do with nutritional status. people who eat well, and have plenty of vitamin C, and other minerals, don't burn as easily as those who don't.


On this forum, someone commented that whilst breastfeeding protects against a whole array of illnesses, it doesn't protect against whooping cough. Actually it does, if the mother has immunity. breastmilk can't provide DIRECT immunity to anything, unless the mother has immunity, but it can provide indirect protection against whooping cough and a whole array of other diseases by the use of a specific protein called alphalactalbumin, and others as well.


How true is this statement? What kind of protection does BF give? What have you read about the fact that breastmilk is a functioning immune system all on it's own?


And while we're on the BF topic - given that immunity is passed from mum to baby via BM, what is the effect on this if mum has been vaccinated and has not developed natural immunity? Is the non-vax'd child of a vax'd mum in a different position to the non-vax'd child of a non-vax'd mum?Yes, they are in a different position. The unvaxxed child of a vaxxed mother, cannot expect to have the same sort of protection as an unvaxxed child of an unvaxxed mother who has had those diseases.


We do our fair share of baking though so we do have homemade goodies on a regular basis (muffins, bikkies, slices etc) - don't know whether this is still junk in disguise? it's junk in disguise, but if you must have junk like that, then start tweaking the recipes so that you use Billington's molasses sugar; a higher proportion of whole grain instead of white flour... whatever you can in order that while it's junk, it's slightly better junk than total junk.


We don't have junk in the house but GRRRRR my mother is atrocious at feeding my kids rubbish. I dropped the boys at her place the other day for 1/2 hour at 10am and came back to find them munching on a bowl each (yes a flamin' bowl) of lollies and chips! I tried to explain to her how important nutrition is etc etc but made the mistake of saying that Natural Confectionary lollies are better than others and plain potato chips are better than twisties so now she thinks that's license to give them junk as long as it comes from certain manufacturers!At least my older son, if they have children, won't have to ban me from having contact with grand children on that score! honestly... that's one reason why our children never went to stay with other family members.




No. Just eat small amounts of everything, because breastmilk is unique in that it presents food "particles" to the gut of a child in such a way as to prevent allergy to them.

(I'm just reading up about all this... and it's fascinating.)
I would be interested to hear what you've learned on this.

email me. I'll send you the talk I gave to doctors recently, though it doesn't have that much in it.. BUT according to the more recent studies, sensitivity to food allergens, ONLY develops in utero IF the mother has active, IGE mediated allergy herself. Under normal conditions, a mother should eat everything during pregnancy and during breastfeeding, becuase the mother's body presents food particles to the baby in specific ways, specifically to prevent food allergy happening. and according to this research, the worst thing you can do is NOT present it during pregnancy and breastfeeding, since those are the times when the baby's immune system is developing "tolerance" to the normal things in life which the child needs to NOT become allergic to over life.

So for instance, if a baby is given a casein based formula at birth, and then not again, until 6 months of age, that baby is FAR more likely to develop allergy to casein and cow proteins, than a baby who had formula every day.

Again, that's explained in the talk I gave to doctors.



Allergy is the bane of my existence and I like to think I'm quite up on things in this area (though in reality I know I'm not!!). For instance I know for a fact that my son was reacting to certain foods I was eating as he tested positive to certain allergens before he even started solids.And yet you're not allergic to those things? Hmmm... Is his father allergic? Is there a family history of allergy?


Theories abound I know and there are good arguments on all sides. I am currently on a very restricted diet while I was preg and now while BF DD in the hope that she will not develop allergies as my son has. That will be interesting. That advice flies in the face of both common sense, and what is shown in medical literature.


We are with the top immunologist in the country (my opinion) and this is his advice so we're going with it in the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary.But did he give you concrete evidence that staying off foods during pregnancy and breastfeeding would prevent allergy? You say in the absense of evidence to the contrary, but what about evidence that his advice is evidence-based?


Having said that I didn't restrict my diet with my other 2 and I have one with multiple allergies to foods and environmentals and one with no known allergies at all. So who knows! Genetics at work!Yes, but whose genetics? What genetics? or was it epigenetics?


Another thread was talking about tap water. How bad is it really? From where I sit, bad. I've not drunk tap water in year, and no I don't drink bottled water, as that's often tap water.
Should I be giving them bottled water? We can't afford to buy bottled water though so are there any cost effective alternatives? Again, I don't know where you live. We installed a "Heath Robinson" rain water system.


I've been thinking about tetanus. How do you avoid this?
given that before vaccines , in developed countries, 99,999 out of 100,000 people avoided contracting tetanus without trying, I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you assuming your children will be the one child who does get it? How many people in your family tree before vaccines, died of tetanus?


I remember when I was little thinking my mum was nuts when she used to tell me to squeeze the blood out of a wound and let it bleed, but is this how you reduce chances of getting tetanus?Yes, it's one way, and cleaning out dirt as well. Funny how kids think their parents are nuts. children's superiority syndrome :giggle::LMAO:


A naturopath told me that lednum was the homeopathic remedy for tetanus. Is this effective? How would you know? Kid gets cut, mother uses ledum, kid doesn't get tetanus, mother says, ledum must be great. Given that 99,999 out of 100,000 kids would never get tetanus in the first place, then all the ledum was, was a placebo to make the mother feel good because they did "something". In fact, if ledum is relied upon, instead of good hygiene, making sure kids wore shoes where stuff might get in their feet etc, you might be more likely to get tetanus if you just relied on ledum instead of good old common sense, and your mother's advice.


Is it something I should just have in my first aid kit? Do I administer it for any cuts, wounds, grazes etc or just specific ones. first thing you do is read up on tetanus and general wound management. learn how to deal with common old cuts and grazes. Learn where to use hydrogen peroxide on which wounds and why. Perhaps, talk to your mother, for a start :giggle:I'm sure she has more nutty advice that might be really useful. There is a thread on this forum which talks about what to have in a first aid kit and why. But everyone has different needs as to what to have in their first aid kit. There are some standards, like hydrogen peroxide, and a few other things, which no-one should be without.


What wounds are more likely to invite tetanus? What are the signs of tetanus and if signs are showing is it too late for alternative therapies and is it straight to the dr?Have you done a google on tetanus to answer these questions?

Here's a suggestion. Do a google, and then add that to a thread in the tetanus, "Tetanus, the disease." which I've made and stickied. I'm happy to help you with information gathering, but I would like everyone here to contribute to that gathering, rather than sit back and wait for me to dish it up. I'm absolutely up to my eyeballs at the moment, and just can't do this myself right now.

Put up what you find. Then we can all add different links


I would really love to develop a sheet with diseases, signs, treatments and when to seek conventional medical help and what conventional medical help to seek. Is anyone able to help me with some info on the more common illnesses to start my sheet off?

In this country, the health department has relatively comprehensive sheets with those things on them. Have you asked your doctor for one?

It's much too big to scan. I'd have to retype everything. have you looked on google for such a thing?


Right, I've been on here far too long, DS2 is amusing himself but that won't last long, DD is due up soon and DS1 is due home from kindy. I still haven't been able to read my books much more in the last few weeks though. I guess that's where some of my anxiety is stemming from too.And your anxiety won't stop, until the top priority for every bit of spare time that the children don't need you, is turned over to knowing enough so that you don't get anxious.

it would be nice if we didn't have to do this, and in theory, most parents don't do anything because they go to the doctor/god for him to take responsibility of everything, and that's just fine by them.

but if you're not going to vaccinate, and if you want to become nutty like your mum, or us, and be responsible for your children, you have to go down the paths that we've done, which is lots of swot. it's a pain, eh?!!!


Oh and I went to that naturopath who didn't say but did seem anti-vax and this is what she has got for us:

Echinacea/Thuja Comp - a homeobotanical I think
Vit D3
Zinc oral drops
Childrens multi
Probiotic (which I was taking anyway but now giving it to kids too, not DD though as hoping she is getting it through my milk)
I'm also taking an immune pill which has all sorts of things like echinacea, olive leaf etc and Omega 3.

My other naturopath has given me a tonic of hers that the kids are taking which echinacea, red clover, peppermint, licorice, myrrh and a few others I cant remember.

I wonder if we are taking too much stuff?I have an old book which is about how, 150 years ago, my traditional ancestors lived off the land, and you know what? The diversity of the plants they ate was AMAZING!!!! Much of the stuff you've been given as supplements, was a regular part of their diet. they used to make, for winter prophylaxis, dandelion wine, elderberry wine, and various things like Elderberry rob, extracts... teas.. these were everyday parts of life.

We've lost that to the point that when a naturopath puts that back into our lives, we think that's extra. Isn't that an indication of how limited our diet and understanding has become? Isn't that an indictment, actually, of the paucity of our education system, that we have NO IDEA how previous generations lived, yet assume that our generation is so much more advance.

Oh yes, we have sewage, hot water, electricity, lots of labour saving devices, and YET we are utterly ignorant as to which plants out there would do what in our bodies, and how we can, without paying much money at all, incorporate them into our everyday lives. We are utterly ignorant of what it takes to run backyard hens properly... how to grow stuff... we've become functional illiterates dependant on first world technology, which... if it blipped out for more than a week, we'd be done for.

So much for our abilities to live on knowledge and common sense.

In a sense, we're simply useless eaters. And I'm including myself in that, although, even at my late age, I'm desperately trying to plug some of those knowledge gaps.

the thing that holds me back from doing that, and applying it practically in my life, is writing books, and.. :giggle:answering 101 questions :LMAO: A bit like how having children is holding you back. Ironic isn't it. Just when we need to apply the information, we're scrambling to try to find it...

There are days when I just wish I had been brought up 150 years ago, in my grandmother's family which was just osmosed with all this stuff. She was such a resourceful amazing woman, and... I never got to know her :(

I really do feel robbed and deprived of the knowledge they had, which when you boil it all down, is far more valuable than knowing how to defrag a computer.



I know some of it is just during the winter months but still it does feel a bit like overkill and the pocket is bone dry as they are all so expensive!

Right DS1 is home, all hell will break loose shortly, will try to come back later tonight!Once upon a time, we used to gather all this stuff throughout the year, dry it ourselves, (or whatever) and know how to apply it all year round.

and now? We are so limited in what we know.

So is the medical profession. Think about it. A GP refers you to an ENT.. who knows nothing about the kidneys....who knows nothing about the right nostril, who hasn't the foggies about the eye, who couldn't discuss the big toe if you tried.

And yet, none of that speciality is really necessary to live a good life, because if we all knew the basics, we'd rarely need any of them. specialists have become an industry, precisely because we as a people have become ignorant of the basics we need to know to stay healthy.

[macntia]

Dear ZGT Mummy,

Your post could have been written by me! I am in a very similar situation to you and share your same concerns, so thank you thank you thank you, for asking all these questions. I am yet to read all of Hilary's answers, there is so much to take in.

My children are currently unwell, my 3 year old has a bad cold (maybe flu?) with fevers off and on, and I am not handling it very well - I've resorted to the panadol VERY BAD I know, but I dont feel like at this stage I dont have the knowledge to handle it any other way, and she gets very distressed with the slightest fever. And my 7 week old has the sniffles, I hope to god she doesn't get what the older one has, and what makes it worse for her is she's not breast fed - AHHHHHH!!!!

Any way, thanks again for asking the questions. By the way if you want more info about the Homeopathic Immunisations, google Dr Isaac Golden - my husband and I are still undecided about this, so I too am seeking further info on this topic too.

Best of luck!!!!!!!!!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

macntia, there is a book, which is no longer available except through second hand book shops, but you might find it in your library. It's not in ours, because every time they got a copy someone would steal it "lose" it... etc... so I found mine on abebooks.com.

If you have to start somewhere, in terms of books, a really good starting place is "Your vital child" by Mark Stengler.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Vital-Child-Natural-Healing/dp/1579543057/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245227294&sr=1-1

There are 22 used ones at Amazon, starting from $5.40.

I have others as well, but this is a really good starting place.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

also, book mark this site. Lots of suggestions as to how to deal with things like colds and stuff...

http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/41/1.cfm

Use the headings down the side to find what you want.

[ZGT Mummy]

You're correct. it changes nothing in terms of what you need to do day by day. But if you "need" to know whether your children are susceptible or not, or if you are bulldozed to vaccinate by someone else, titres are a way of buying time, finding out, and knowing what issues "they" will have. It defines the discussion parameters in situations where any dispute is doctor driven.

I don't feel I "need" to know. And seeing as hubby is happy to go along with not vaccinating, and my GP is happy for me to make my decision either way so long as I'm informed, then I don't feel bulldozed either as no one else's opinion matters to me.


remind me where you are. I have Alzheimers

Pakuranga, Auckland.


first you need to know what the first signs of vitamin C lack are, and that is tiredness, a red line around the gums around the teeth. Some people interpret this as gingivitis, or gum disease, which is actually nothing more than vitamin C deficiency. There are other signs, so google that.

I'm exhausted, but then I get very little sleep at the moment! The kids aren't tired when awake (unless they've decided to wake at 5am that morning :eek:) and gums all look nice and pink and normal! Yes I see I must do more of my own research, I'm just so gullable that I prefer to have my questions answered by someone I trust rather than any Tom, Dick or Harry whose link pops up on a google search! I'm not a challenger, I'm an accepter, which is something I'm working on changing in myself!


If you are using sea salt or decent salt, a bit is okay, but if you are using iodized salt with aluminium free flow agent, toss it.

Yay something good I'm doing! We have a grinder with sea salt in it :)


One thing I don't want this site to become is a one stop shop, because if that happens people get used to coming here ( a bit like how they used to go to the doctor, and now a board becomes a different "help desk") so all I'm doing is telling you what I think. when it comes to what you think and what you know, it's best to do much of the work yourself, and then you KNOW because it's driven by your need to know, and finding it out, hammers it into your head much better than being handed it on a plate, and told to swallow it

Yes I know that I must start doing more research myself and try to find answers for all of my questions! As I said I'm just so gullable that I'm concerned I may fall for some bit of info that isn't true. I guess I could always come here for opinions though :D


that is true, which is why you have to be careful what produce you buy, where it comes from, and if possible, grow some of your own using organic gardening principles.

Well sadly I buy from my local supermarket or fruit shop. I try to only ever buy NZ produce and as far as growing our own, well it's in the pipeline, but the garden is more like a jungle at the moment, hubby swears it will get sorted though :eyeroll:


If you must eat bread, find a natural bread, with a high % of wholemeal, no soy, and preferably sourdough

And again this is where the allergies come into play. The only bread we can buy that I'm aware of that can guarantee it's safety is the commerical stuff that will always have soy flour in it. As far as I've seen the only places to buy sourdough are specialty bakers where the risk of cross contamination is too great for us to risk. I can't even make my own wholemeal bread as just recently Champion have put an egg traces warning on their wholemeal flour :bangshead:


Your traditions, not mine :D But no traditional diet ever included white sugar, white flour, sweets, icecream, etc.... because 150 years ago, those things didn't exist like they do today.


I would quite happily eat a traditional chinese diet, I did have a reasonable amount of it growing up, sadly my mother didn't see fit to teach me anything so my chinese cooking skills are minimal, plus my family won't eat it. Now I do go for the "it's up to me to cook and serve the food but it's your choice to eat it or not" theory, and some meals I serve I know beforehand the kids won't touch, but at some point I do need to serve some meals that I know they will have some of. Hubby is also an issue and is very picky with his food and no matter how many "talks" I have with him about nutrition (which he does know as he is an educated person with decent lashings of common sense) and setting a good example for the kids, his cravings for sugar and white bread win out every time. Just tonight I served what I thought was a yummy dinner of baked chicken wrapped in bacon, mashed kumera, steamed veges - broccoli, cauli, beans, carrots. He proceeded to get the bread out and make a sandwiches with it and not even touch any of the veges. So of course the kids had to have a slice of bread each too (at that time of night I just can't handle the whinging and crying that would ensure if we did not allow them to have a slice of bread each). Honestly I feel like I'm :bangshead:


I use all sorts of things on bread like avocado, pumpkin puree, tahini... there are lots of things which can be used, but would have to take allergies into account.

Well sadly DS2 is allergic to avocado (and at $4 each I'm not buying them either!!) and sesame so tahini is out. I've tried homemade hummus (no tahini), meat purees, vege purees the list goes on, but all rejected. The only thing he'll eat on bread is vegemite. I could do it without Olivani but it would be pretty dry, esp as toast???? He won't touch, honey or even jam!


I bet it is, and if it actually came down to your health, or theirs, I'd just feed whateve they would actually eat, and look after yourself first, and let their health slide. There's only so much of taking horses to water that any sensible parent can stand. I've given up on my younger son. he's a totally lost cause. And he knows I think that. I just shrug and say, "it's your life matey..."


Sadly I can see all of them ending up this way and the thought of it breaks my heart :( My only hope is that my daughter gets some of my habits rather than her fathers as the boys so far seem to have, despite my best efforts. As you say caught not taught.


Are your children constantly having infections? The fact that there are allergies already tells me that their immune systems aren't working anywhere near normally. While allergy isn't classified as an immunodeficiency, in my mind it's immunoderangement.

:giggle:Immunoderangement, I like that. I'll tell everyone my son is immunoderanged. Well I feel they are healthier than other kids I know of. Neither of the boys have ever had chest or ear infections, nor anything more serious than a cold. A few fevers now and again, I think a couple of tummy bugs, hand foot and mouth a couple of times, that's all that springs to mind at the moment. DS1 has never had antibiotics and DS2 only ever had them once when I momentarily misplaced my sanity and allowed an overzealous registrar treat him for a possible infection that he didn't have.


No, if the kids are getting burned, that's silly. Out early in the morning, or later in afternoon, with plenty of exposed skin. In the burn time, long sleeved loose cottong shirts or whatever. But sunscreen has an array of chemicals in it which IMO are potentially more carcinogenic than the sun is.

In my defence, I use a sunscreen that has far less in it than standard sunscreens on the market. Mine lists ingredients as: purified water, zinc oxide, wheatgerm, lavender oil, citric acid, seaweed and buckwheat extracts, glycerin and xanthan gum.


What have you read about the fact that breastmilk is a functioning immune system all on it's own?

Nothing really, can you point me in the direction of some reputable research and info? Should just google it though shouldn't I :o


according to the more recent studies, sensitivity to food allergens, ONLY develops in utero IF the mother has active, IGE mediated allergy herself.

Well I've not had RASTs done on myself but I would assume I have IgE mediated allergies to several environmentals. I don't have any food allergies that I am aware of and anything I do react to would be more likely IgG mediated.


Under normal conditions, a mother should eat everything during pregnancy and during breastfeeding, becuase the mother's body presents food particles to the baby in specific ways, specifically to prevent food allergy happening. and according to this research, the worst thing you can do is NOT present it during pregnancy and breastfeeding, since those are the times when the baby's immune system is developing "tolerance" to the normal things in life which the child needs to NOT become allergic to over life.

Well this didn't work for us in the case of DS2 as I was eating a normal diet when I was pregnant and for the first couple of months BF him and he has awful allergies that in hindsight started to show in the first week or his life.


So for instance, if a baby is given a casein based formula at birth, and then not again, until 6 months of age, that baby is FAR more likely to develop allergy to casein and cow proteins, than a baby who had formula every day.

This is rather funny actually, but my DS1 was given some formula in the first couple of days due to dehydration and me not having any milk due to c-section (he was a big hungry baby!) and he doesn't have any allergies that we are aware of. DS2 never had any formula go anywhere near his lips and he is severely allergic to cows milk! Go figure.


And yet you're not allergic to those things? Hmmm... Is his father allergic? Is there a family history of allergy?

As far as I am aware I don't have any IgE mediated food allergies and even when I took them out of my diet when I was BF him and then putting them back in my diet after he weaned I noticed no difference whatsoever. In terms of family history, well allergy abound really. On my side I am atopic - eczema, hayfever (though that seems to have disappeared with my pregnancies), very mild asthma that hasn't been an issue since childhood and wasn't even an issue back then (no inhalers or medication). I have terrible environmental allergies, dust mites (which has been treated by AAE and even though I was sceptical it seems to have worked), pollens, grasses, animals, trees etc. Hubby is atopic - hayfever, asthma (mild) and has environmental allergies too. I don't know about his side but on my side my allergies come from my English father. All my half brothers and sisters on his side have either allergies themselves or their kids do. I've always said to myself when feeling rather low and bogged down with DS2's allergies that given our genes we were LUCKY to have DS1 allergy free, NOT unlucky to have an allergy ridden DS2.


But did he give you concrete evidence that staying off foods during pregnancy and breastfeeding would prevent allergy? You say in the absense of evidence to the contrary, but what about evidence that his advice is evidence-based?

No, no guarantees in preventing allergy as genetics plays such a large part and that's just a spin of the roulette wheel. But he has developed this theory and has given this advice to "hundreds" - his words - of his own patients and has had 5 or 6 kids that it didn't work on. Of course the other kids may have avoided allergy anyway despite the maternal diet, but I am personally in contact with a few of these families and know that their subsequent child is allergy free. In fact a very good friend of mine is one of those people who has a severely allergic #1 and #2 is now 19 months and so far so good but is still not allowed egg, nuts or seafood till 2 and 5 years respectively. Again this is one of the areas I feel I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I follow this path and upon introduction of the food she has a reaction I'll be kicking myself that I didn't take the other approach, and vice versa. He did say that one very good indication in his experience is the skin of the newborn. And I must say that in my family that does hold true. DS1 had beautiful baby skin (once he got over the overcooked peeling look of an overdue baby) and DS2 had red hot snake-like skin from the day he was born. DD has lovely skin like her big, big brother so it's all fingers crossed here!


Again, I don't know where you live. We installed a "Heath Robinson" rain water system

Pakuranga and I googled Heath Robinson and didn't get any constructive links to explain to me what this is. Is it a rainwater collection device? What about getting a filter for the tap? I've seen them before but are they any good? I suppose I'd have to spend a load of money to get a good one that filters out all the nasties? And what nasties do I want to filter out? Do I literally just want a couple of hydrogens and an oxygen?


Perhaps, talk to your mother, for a start :giggle:I'm sure she has more nutty advice that might be really useful.

I'm not sure I'm quite ready to admit that my mother is capable of anything other than mindless dribble :crazy: I just remember her saying to squeeze all the poison out, but I don't think she ever associated it with tetanus. She is much like me, or rather I like her, in that we just accept things without questioning the why's so whilst she knew to bleed out a wound she doesn't actually know why to do it. The sad thing with her is that she is too westernised. All the chinese traditional stuff has been lost to her as she arrived here in her late 20's and back then it was white man that was #1 and everyone wanted to lose their cultural ways and be more westernised. I was talking to her the other day about the herbal tonic I have for the kids and she said it sounded like something my uncle does for his grandson who has asthma. I could talk to him but that would be useless as he doesn't speak English and my mother in her wisdom never taught me chinese :slap: I wish I could talk more to my aunties and uncles as I'm sure they have loads of useful info but there is that communication barrier issue.....



I would really love to develop a sheet with diseases, signs, treatments and when to seek conventional medical help and what conventional medical help to seek. Is anyone able to help me with some info on the more common illnesses to start my sheet off? In this country, the health department has relatively comprehensive sheets with those things on them. Have you asked your doctor for one?

No I haven't, I wasn't aware they had this and I've not had any need to see him so haven't discussed the vax thing further with him. Will give them a call and ask, thanks.


We've lost that to the point that when a naturopath puts that back into our lives, we think that's extra. Isn't that an indication of how limited our diet and understanding has become? Isn't that an indictment, actually, of the paucity of our education system, that we have NO IDEA how previous generations lived, yet assume that our generation is so much more advance.

Oh yes, we have sewage, hot water, electricity, lots of labour saving devices, and YET we are utterly ignorant as to which plants out there would do what in our bodies, and how we can, without paying much money at all, incorporate them into our everyday lives. We are utterly ignorant of what it takes to run backyard hens properly... how to grow stuff... we've become functional illiterates dependant on first world technology, which... if it blipped out for more than a week, we'd be done for.

Agreed. We are ignorant to so many more things that once were common knowledge but are now lost. I am having a debate with someone at the moment surrounding breastfeeding and how there are plenty of women who supposedly don't have enough milk to feed their baby. I am trying to point out that statistically only something like 2% of women truely do have supply issues, the rest of it is mismanagement of breastfeeding due to lack of knowledge. Whereas years/decades/centuries ago it was more of a village culture and little girls were surrounded by breastfeeding women so it was normal and learned well before that child had children of her own and then when she did there would be all the women in the village around her to help her 24/7 and she would not have to race around cleaning the house and doing the washing and looking after the other kids and getting them to kindy and school and cooking dinner etc etc, she would just have to feed the baby, period.

I hate to think what else has been lost over time :(

Well yet again my time this evening has come to an end. I have a tonne to do before draggin myself to bed this side of today.

Thanks for all your help so far Hilary, long may it last! I do see this as the start of my education and despite being somewhat overwhelmed by the shear amount of information I have to osmose I am very glad my midwife planted that seed several months ago...

"Are you vaccinating", "umm yes?", "I'm surprised given your family history that you haven't done your research on that one". Crap.

[Serephina]

I agree with everything MT posted.

The one thing I would add is that you seriously need to look into your family's gut health. Given your and your husband's history of atopic conditions, your son's multiple food allergies, and the preference for sugary stuff, bread and bland foods over yummy nutritious meals this is the very first thing I would be addressing. There are a few threads on here re: gut health that would be well worth reading.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I don't feel I "need" to know. And seeing as hubby is happy to go along with not vaccinating, and my GP is happy for me to make my decision either way so long as I'm informed, then I don't feel bulldozed either as no one else's opinion matters to me.Good... :D


Pakuranga, Auckland.Ah. :alien: quite near me actually.... :giggle:


I'm exhausted, but then I get very little sleep at the moment! The kids aren't tired when awake (unless they've decided to wake at 5am that morning :eek:) and gums all look nice and pink and normal! Good. Sounds promising.


Yes I see I must do more of my own research, I'm just so gullable that I prefer to have my questions answered by someone I trust rather than any Tom, Dick or Harry whose link pops up on a google search! I'm not a challenger, I'm an accepter, which is something I'm working on changing in myself!Sounds like you've made a good start :cool:


Yay something good I'm doing! We have a grinder with sea salt in it :):thumb:


Yes I know that I must start doing more research myself and try to find answers for all of my questions! As I said I'm just so gullable that I'm concerned I may fall for some bit of info that isn't true. I guess I could always come here for opinions though :D As you know the site has a disclaimer :giggle:


Well sadly I buy from my local supermarket or fruit shop. I try to only ever buy NZ produce and as far as growing our own, well it's in the pipeline, but the garden is more like a jungle at the moment, hubby swears it will get sorted though :eyeroll:Do you have a farmer's market nearby? As to that husband, tell him to get his A into G.


And again this is where the allergies come into play. The only bread we can buy that I'm aware of that can guarantee it's safety is the commerical stuff that will always have soy flour in it. As far as I've seen the only places to buy sourdough are specialty bakers where the risk of cross contamination is too great for us to risk. I can't even make my own wholemeal bread as just recently Champion have put an egg traces warning on their wholemeal flour :bangshead:can you buy whole wheat and get it ground somewhere? Or scout down a second hand SAMAP grinder or summit?


I would quite happily eat a traditional chinese diet, I did have a reasonable amount of it growing up, sadly my mother didn't see fit to teach me anything so my chinese cooking skills are minimal, plus my family won't eat it. Now I do go for the "it's up to me to cook and serve the food but it's your choice to eat it or not" theory, and some meals I serve I know beforehand the kids won't touch, but at some point I do need to serve some meals that I know they will have some of. Hubby is also an issue and is very picky with his food and no matter how many "talks" I have with him about nutrition (which he does know as he is an educated person with decent lashings of common sense) and setting a good example for the kids, his cravings for sugar and white bread win out every time. Just tonight I served what I thought was a yummy dinner of baked chicken wrapped in bacon, mashed kumera, steamed veges - broccoli, cauli, beans, carrots. He proceeded to get the bread out and make a sandwiches with it and not even touch any of the veges. So of course the kids had to have a slice of bread each too (at that time of night I just can't handle the whinging and crying that would ensure if we did not allow them to have a slice of bread each). Honestly I feel like I'm :bangshead: Okay, your husband needs a rocket under his backside.


Well sadly DS2 is allergic to avocado (and at $4 each I'm not buying them either!!) and sesame so tahini is out. I've tried homemade hummus (no tahini), meat purees, vege purees the list goes on, but all rejected. The only thing he'll eat on bread is vegemite. I could do it without Olivani but it would be pretty dry, esp as toast???? He won't touch, honey or even jam!yes, toast is dry, unless dipped in soup...


Sadly I can see all of them ending up this way and the thought of it breaks my heart :( My only hope is that my daughter gets some of my habits rather than her fathers as the boys so far seem to have, despite my best efforts. As you say caught not taught.There is only so much you can do, and you just have to distance yourself from moron attitudes. I'm very straight with my younger son. "If you aren't prepared to make an effort and change your lifestyle, don't come and moan to me, if something self-inflicted comes along the way...." Something legit, I will help with. Something self-inflicted I will help also, but there will be no sympathy.


:giggle:Immunoderangement, I like that. I'll tell everyone my son is immunoderanged. Well I feel they are healthier than other kids I know of. Neither of the boys have ever had chest or ear infections, nor anything more serious than a cold. A few fevers now and again, I think a couple of tummy bugs, hand foot and mouth a couple of times, that's all that springs to mind at the moment. DS1 has never had antibiotics and DS2 only ever had them once when I momentarily misplaced my sanity and allowed an overzealous registrar treat him for a possible infection that he didn't have.:giggle::giggle:


In my defence, I use a sunscreen that has far less in it than standard sunscreens on the market. Mine lists ingredients as: purified water, zinc oxide, wheatgerm, lavender oil, citric acid, seaweed and buckwheat extracts, glycerin and xanthan gum.Oh. :lol: Does it work??? :D


Nothing really, can you point me in the direction of some reputable research and info? Should just google it though shouldn't I :oEmail me, and I'll send you a talk I did to docs, and a few medical articles to chew on.


Well I've not had RASTs done on myself but I would assume I have IgE mediated allergies to several environmentals. I don't have any food allergies that I am aware of and anything I do react to would be more likely IgG mediated.which means your immune system is sorta deranged as well, though not as bad...


Well this didn't work for us in the case of DS2 as I was eating a normal diet when I was pregnant and for the first couple of months BF him and he has awful allergies that in hindsight started to show in the first week or his life.Hmmm.. did you use any antibiotics or antiacids during your pregnancy with him?


This is rather funny actually, but my DS1 was given some formula in the first couple of days due to dehydration and me not having any milk due to c-section (he was a big hungry baby!) and he doesn't have any allergies that we are aware of. Why do they say you have "nothing" when your milk hasn't come in yet. Until milk comes in there is a clear liquid, which is of quite sizeable quantity, and increases quickly with regular feeding. It's clear, and specifically to flush down vaginally acquired bioflora, which your baby wouldn't have got because of the caesar. But none the less, there was no scientific basis, or reason, in fact, to give your son formula. They should have given him to you and told you to convert him into a tit-limpet.


DS2 never had any formula go anywhere near his lips and he is severely allergic to cows milk! Go figure.I'm trying to. Apart from an unfortunate genetic combination of the worst possible from both sides, the only explanation I can come up with is antibiotic/antiacids during pregnancy.


As far as I am aware I don't have any IgE mediated food allergies and even when I took them out of my diet when I was BF him and then putting them back in my diet after he weaned I noticed no difference whatsoever. In terms of family history, well allergy abound really. On my side I am atopic - eczema, hayfever (though that seems to have disappeared with my pregnancies), very mild asthma that hasn't been an issue since childhood and wasn't even an issue back then (no inhalers or medication). I have terrible environmental allergies, dust mites (which has been treated by AAE and even though I was sceptical it seems to have worked), pollens, grasses, animals, trees etc. Hubby is atopic - hayfever, asthma (mild) and has environmental allergies too. I don't know about his side but on my side my allergies come from my English father. All my half brothers and sisters on his side have either allergies themselves or their kids do. I've always said to myself when feeling rather low and bogged down with DS2's allergies that given our genes we were LUCKY to have DS1 allergy free, NOT unlucky to have an allergy ridden DS2.Sounds like a routlette combination...


No, no guarantees in preventing allergy as genetics plays such a large part and that's just a spin of the roulette wheel. But he has developed this theory and has given this advice to "hundreds" - his words - of his own patients and has had 5 or 6 kids that it didn't work on. If allergy is largely genetic, (rather than epigenetic) then altering diet during pregnany and feeding should make no difference. If it's epigenetic, then yes, diet can make a difference, because it will shut off, or switch on genes to result in abnormal immune function.


Of course the other kids may have avoided allergy anyway despite the maternal diet,So far you have 50/50 odds whatever way :D


but I am personally in contact with a few of these families and know that their subsequent child is allergy free. In fact a very good friend of mine is one of those people who has a severely allergic #1 and #2 is now 19 months and so far so good but is still not allowed egg, nuts or seafood till 2 and 5 years respectively.

the technical "reasoning" behind that is that they are discovering that a baby's immune system doesn't even approach an adult functioning until after 4. Of course, that still makes it okay to shoot vaccines into wee babies, even if they don't know how a baby's immune system functions :rolleyes::alien:


Again this is one of the areas I feel I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I follow this path and upon introduction of the food she has a reaction I'll be kicking myself that I didn't take the other approach, and vice versa.I wouldn't think about it too much. You've started this course, so stay on it, and whatever happens is what happens.


He did say that one very good indication in his experience is the skin of the newborn. And I must say that in my family that does hold true. DS1 had beautiful baby skin (once he got over the overcooked peeling look of an overdue baby) and DS2 had red hot snake-like skin from the day he was born. DD has lovely skin like her big, big brother so it's all fingers crossed here! Good :D


Pakuranga and I googled Heath Robinson and didn't get any constructive links to explain to me what this is. Is it a rainwater collection device? Ah. (sucks breath in and blushes) Heath Robinson was a cartoonist who used to specialist in drawing intricate home made machines with bubble-gum; No.8 fencing wire and crazy ideas. In our house, "Heath Robinson" means that my husband put his circuitous brain to work, and what morphed was the result.

Basically, we collect rain off one non-toxic roof, by washing the roof, letting it rain to clean it, run the water into non-toxic tanks through a crazy panty-hose filtration system, and when the tanks are full, close the system up. voila.



What about getting a filter for the tap? I've seen them before but are they any good? I suppose I'd have to spend a load of money to get a good one that filters out all the nasties? And what nasties do I want to filter out? Do I literally just want a couple of hydrogens and an oxygen?Lots of people do use a filter. But I have no experience of them.


I'm not sure I'm quite ready to admit that my mother is capable of anything other than mindless dribble :crazy: I just remember her saying to squeeze all the poison out, but I don't think she ever associated it with tetanus. She is much like me, or rather I like her, in that we just accept things without questioning the why's so whilst she knew to bleed out a wound she doesn't actually know why to do it. The sad thing with her is that she is too westernised. All the chinese traditional stuff has been lost to her as she arrived here in her late 20's and back then it was white man that was #1 and everyone wanted to lose their cultural ways and be more westernised. I was talking to her the other day about the herbal tonic I have for the kids and she said it sounded like something my uncle does for his grandson who has asthma. I could talk to him but that would be useless as he doesn't speak English and my mother in her wisdom never taught me chinese :slap: I wish I could talk more to my aunties and uncles as I'm sure they have loads of useful info but there is that communication barrier issue..... Join the club. Though my mother only spoke English... however, I was partially brought up by others so spoke other languages when we came here, which was quickly :slap: knocked on the head. My mother in her wisdom, considered old ways, "old" and never spoke of them. Pitiful really,... but then i've not taught my kids either, because much of what I learned as catch-up, was when they were older... and they so rarely got sick, that I didn't have many opportunities to practice on them. :(



No I haven't, I wasn't aware they had this and I've not had any need to see him so haven't discussed the vax thing further with him. Will give them a call and ask, thanks.It's a public health A+ called "Infectious diseases that children can get." Very old. Very large, fold up... October 1996. maybe I should scan it into a pdf and email it to you. they must have put out new ones since then....


Agreed. We are ignorant to so many more things that once were common knowledge but are now lost. I am having a debate with someone at the moment surrounding breastfeeding and how there are plenty of women who supposedly don't have enough milk to feed their baby. I am trying to point out that statistically only something like 2% of women truely do have supply issues, the rest of it is mismanagement of breastfeeding due to lack of knowledge. Whereas years/decades/centuries ago it was more of a village culture and little girls were surrounded by breastfeeding women so it was normal and learned well before that child had children of her own and then when she did there would be all the women in the village around her to help her 24/7 and she would not have to race around cleaning the house and doing the washing and looking after the other kids and getting them to kindy and school and cooking dinner etc etc, she would just have to feed the baby, period.

I hate to think what else has been lost over time :(Scads. Just scads, and it's so disappointing....


I do see this as the start of my education and despite being somewhat overwhelmed by the shear amount of information I have to osmose I am very glad my midwife planted that seed several months ago...funny how it's often midwives who plan seeds. I'm here now, because of a midwife by the name of Joan Donley :D


"Are you vaccinating", "umm yes?", "I'm surprised given your family history that you haven't done your research on that one". Crap.Yeah.

But on the other hand, if doctors ask me if my kids are vaccinated, my answer is that they are up to date. (since their schedule includes none at all, they are always up to date) :slap:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I agree with everything MT posted.

The one thing I would add is that you seriously need to look into your family's gut health. Given your and your husband's history of atopic conditions, your son's multiple food allergies, and the preference for sugary stuff, bread and bland foods over yummy nutritious meals this is the very first thing I would be addressing. There are a few threads on here re: gut health that would be well worth reading.

Yes... absolutely, becuase the fundamental cause of allergies is often tracked back to ruined gut flora.... that is why antibiotics and antiacids in pregnancy can cause such damage... they napalm the insides, or wreck the acid balance, which changes gut flora...

[ZGT Mummy]

Do you have a farmer's market nearby? As to that husband, tell him to get his A into G.

I heard there is one at Matakana but that's not exactly nearby! Yes well as for hubby, apparently this weekend he's wiring up some lights in the garage and going pig hunting......


can you buy whole wheat and get it ground somewhere? Or scout down a second hand SAMAP grinder or summit?

Will look into this. Of course even if I do all this there is the very high likelihood that they will take one look at the bread and turn their noses up :eyeroll:


Okay, your husband needs a rocket under his backside.

Mmmm hmmm.:Whip: or perhaps :chair: or maybe :kick: though I highly doubt any of those would have any effect.


Why do they say you have "nothing" when your milk hasn't come in yet. Until milk comes in there is a clear liquid, which is of quite sizeable quantity, and increases quickly with regular feeding. It's clear, and specifically to flush down vaginally acquired bioflora, which your baby wouldn't have got because of the caesar. But none the less, there was no scientific basis, or reason, in fact, to give your son formula. They should have given him to you and told you to convert him into a tit-limpet.

Yes sadly I was a naive first time mum, and even as first time mums go I was one of the more "I don't have a clue" types. As I said by nature I'm an accepter not a challenger so I just accepted everything I was told as gospel and back then the medical profession were gods to me anyway. Plus the after effects of the narcotics were still lingering in my system. My memories of those first few days are very hazy :(


If allergy is largely genetic, (rather than epigenetic) then altering diet during pregnany and feeding should make no difference. If it's epigenetic, then yes, diet can make a difference, because it will shut off, or switch on genes to result in abnormal immune function.

I am yet to come to fully understand the term epigenetic - I did google it late last night but my brain had switched off by then, as it is in the process of doing now. I was always good at the sciences but my studies in this area did stop at 7th form which was more years ago than I care to remember. But I'm guessing then that it's possibly epigenetic??? I think his reasoning is that the risk of developing food allergies in highly allergenic families is mitigated if certain food groups are introduced much later than normal, I guess giving the immune system time to mature a bit more? I did talk with him a wee bit about this a few months ago and he said there seemed to be a window very early on to introduce the allergenic foods then the window closes for some time and re-opens later on. Of course as he pointed out there have been no studies on this due to the ethical issues that surround experimenting with babies in this manner.


the technical "reasoning" behind that is that they are discovering that a baby's immune system doesn't even approach an adult functioning until after 4. Of course, that still makes it okay to shoot vaccines into wee babies, even if they don't know how a baby's immune system functions

The more research I do the more I make myself physically sick that I allowed them to vaccinate my boys :disbelief:


Ah. (sucks breath in and blushes) Heath Robinson was a cartoonist who used to specialist in drawing intricate home made machines with bubble-gum; No.8 fencing wire and crazy ideas. In our house, "Heath Robinson" means that my husband put his circuitous brain to work, and what morphed was the result.

Basically, we collect rain off one non-toxic roof, by washing the roof, letting it rain to clean it, run the water into non-toxic tanks through a crazy panty-hose filtration system, and when the tanks are full, close the system up. voila.


Funny actually as I was at my parents' house the other day as my father's computer had crashed and he said all he was doing was looking up Heath Robinson. I didn't make the link though! Well unless you're willing to hire out your hubby, as mine simply wouldn't cope with a task such as this, then I need to look into filters.


Hmmm.. did you use any antibiotics or antiacids during your pregnancy with him?

I'm trying to. Apart from an unfortunate genetic combination of the worst possible from both sides, the only explanation I can come up with is antibiotic/antiacids during pregnancy.

In the absence of a "hit the nail on the head" smilie (and I've just discovered these hence my posts are now littered with them), I'm going to use:hail: and :bow:.

I was in hospital for 1 week on IV anitbiotics with DS2's pregnancy due to in infection in my sternoclavicular joint - excrutiatingly painful I have to say. I've always regretted the course of treatment but can't go back and change time and didn't know back then that I needed to anyway. Didn't take probiotics nor give him any till just in the last few months.

I'm not even sure if he's taking the right probiotics. I'm giving the kids the same one I'm taking which is Lactobacillius Rhamnosus. I'm taking this one due to the recent Otago study re allergies and eczema. Perhaps I should be giving them a different strain. Any info on that?


funny how it's often midwives who plan seeds. I'm here now, because of a midwife by the name of Joan Donley :D


Yes and again I wish things had been different and I'd had her for my boys as well. I can bet your life I wouldn't have ended up with a c-section with #1, nor forceps with #2 and she most probably would've had me on probiotics to help combat the anitbiotics I was given for the infection. Well at least under her care I did have the beautiful completely natural homebirth that I'd always wanted. Oh how things could've been so different but there's no point dwelling I suppose. As she often said to me, you can't take the journey twice.


The one thing I would add is that you seriously need to look into your family's gut health. Given your and your husband's history of atopic conditions, your son's multiple food allergies, and the preference for sugary stuff, bread and bland foods over yummy nutritious meals this is the very first thing I would be addressing. There are a few threads on here re: gut health that would be well worth reading.

Thanks Serephina, I think you're absolutely right. A good quality probiotic I think is the first step, but what is good (and dairy free)?

[Serephina]

Have a look into Progurt (http://www.progurt.com/). I haven't used it personally (yet!) however I've heard good reports from others. Because the probiotic strains are human derived rather than of bovine origin the "good bugs" can actually colonise the gut.

Home made fermented foods such as sauerkraut and kim chee are also natural source of probiotics. Kefir and yogurt (home made only, not the bought rubbish ;)) are also great but obviously not suitable if you are dairy free.

Also if you can get a hold of the book "Gut & Psychology Syndrome" I think you'll find it a really valuable read. Given that around 80% of our immune system resides in the gut it really is important to get it sorted.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Here's the thread on epigenetics (http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=331&highlight=epigenetics) which is in the Health, Nutrition and Immune system forum.

If you need to, I can lend you the book on gut & pscyhology syndrome and DVD presentations...

You're right. your family probably would turn their noses up at it...

You can't beat yourself up about what you don't know. As the midwife said, you can't take the journey twice.

What gets me, is why immunologists don't know this stuff. It is, after all, in their own literature.... You really wonder about where their heads are.