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cartersmom
27-05-09, 11:11 PM
I was under the impression that the soil here in the US was depleted of selenium and that most Americans were probably deficient. Did a little digging and discovered that it's only certain area in the US where soil is deficient. You can look here http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html

But unless you know exactly where your food was grown, this may pose a problem right??


http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/high-selenium-linked-to-diabetes

Most Americans have high selenium levels in their bodies, but diabetics have even more. A new study confirms a link between selenium and the disease, suggesting that "selenium supplements should not be used in the U.S. until there is a better understanding of their potential risks and benefits," the authors say.
By Marla Cone
Editor in Chief
Environmental Health News
May 20, 2009
Americans with diabetes have high levels of selenium in their bodies, prompting some health experts to suspect that it could contribute to development of the disease. In response to their new findings, a research team has recommended that U.S. residents stop taking supplements that contain selenium.

Most Americans ingest large amounts of the mineral—substantially more than people elsewhere--because soil in much of the country contains high levels that are absorbed by crops. Selenium occurs naturally in soil and leaches onto farm fields from irrigation and streams.

The research team, led by Johns Hopkins University epidemiologists, examined the diabetes rate and selenium levels of 917 people over the age of 40 who participated in a national health study conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2003 and 2004. They found that most had a lot of selenium in their blood, but those with diabetes had substantially more.

The benefits and dangers of selenium have been debated in recent years because some studies show it might help protect people from cancer and heart disease. Selenium is an essential element and antioxidant, but medical experts say there is a fine line between the amount that the body needs and the amount that is harmful.

“Given the current diabetes epidemic, the high selenium intake from naturally occurring selenium in U.S. soil and the popularity of multivitamin/mineral supplements containing selenium in the U.S., these findings call for a thorough evaluation of the risk and benefits associated with high selenium status in the U.S.,” the researchers wrote in a study (http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2009/0900704/abstract.html) published online in Environmental Health Perspectives on May 15.

“Furthermore,” they wrote, “our findings suggest that selenium supplements should not be used in the U.S. until there is a better understanding of their potential risks and benefits.”

Supplements containing selenium have gained popularity in the United States because of anti-cancer claims, and selenium levels in people have been rising. Nearly one-quarter of Americans over the age of 40 take selenium supplements or multivitamin supplements that include selenium.

According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, selenium supplements are generally unnecessary because “normal consumption of food and water” provides adequate amounts. However, since 2003, the FDA has allowed manufacturers to state on labels that selenium “may reduce the risk of certain forms of cancer” based on “limited and not conclusive” evidence.

The new findings bolster the concerns of many health experts that extra selenium may be harmful.

"I would never, ever, ever take supplements with selenium in it," said Judith Stern, a professor of nutrition and internal medicine at University of California at Davis. “This study is not showing cause and effect. The association is provocative, not causal. But I still would never, ever use it. Selenium is toxic, and as Americans, we tend to really overdo it."

Maria Boosalis, director of clinical nutrition at the University of Kentucky's College of Health Sciences, recommended in a published report last year that "the indiscriminate use of selenium supplements should be approached with caution" until long-term health studies are conducted.

A link between diabetes and selenium initially was reported in 2007, based on results of people tested between 1988 and 1994 as part of the CDC’s National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. Since then, average selenium levels in the country have increased 9 percent. Also in 2007, a large clinical trial in which people were given selenium tablets to see if it reduced their cancer risk was discontinued after they experienced a high diabetes rate.

The new study was directed by Dr. Eliseo Guallar, an associate professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health and a director at the National Center for Cardiovascular Research in Madrid, Spain.

Other recent research suggests that environmental exposures may play a role in diabetes. In particular, exposure to hormone-altering contaminants in the womb may lead to development of the disease later in life.

One new study (http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2009/0800530/abstract.html), published online Monday in Environmental Health Perspectives, reported that mice exposed to dioxins in utero and then fed a high-fat diet developed higher blood glucose levels. Those fed a low-fat diet, as well as those that were overweight but not fed dioxins, did not have the same health effects. Dioxins are ubiquitous industrial pollutants.

The scientists in the dioxin study said their work with mice “demonstrates a clear interaction between diet and response to environmental chemicals.” One of the authors was Linda Birnbaum, an Environmental Protection Agency scientist who was recently named director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences.

In the selenium study, diabetics had an average of nearly 144 parts per billion of selenium in their blood, compared with about 136 ppb for the non-diabetics. The highest risk of the disease was found for those with levels between 130 and 150 ppb.

People with the high selenium levels also had higher fasting plasma glucose and glycosylated hemoglobin levels, which indicate risk of diabetes. The researchers adjusted their findings to account for factors that might skew the link to diabetes, including age, obesity and smoking. Selenium levels actually decreased with higher body mass index.

Selenium helps the body produce antioxidants and also regulates thyroid hormones. But everyone in the study except for one person had selenium levels that exceeded 90 parts per billion, the maximum amount needed to maintain those healthy functions.

The researchers said the link between selenium and increased risk of diabetes may not apply to other populations with lower levels, such as most Europeans.

Stern said the only people who should take selenium are those who know they live in low-selenium areas, which are rare in the United States. A U.S. Geological Survey map (http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/map/image/lower48/se_aa.jpg) shows high-selenium soil is scattered throughout the country. In China, however, selenium deficiencies are common so supplements are often necessary.
The recommended dietary allowance for selenium is 55 micrograms per day for adults, and most Americans reach that with diet alone. The FDA warns that the daily intake should not exceed 400 micrograms. The FDA recalled two popular dietary supplements last year that contained more than 40,000 micrograms, an amount considered toxic.

How the high selenium might cause diabetes is “largely unexplored,” Guallar and his co-authors wrote. It may increase insulin resistance.

“Given the high selenium exposures in the U.S., the mechanisms underlying these associations need to be investigated,” they wrote.

Barefoot
27-05-09, 11:59 PM
I don't take supplements but try to eat a few Brazil nuts each day for their selenium content.

Momtezuma Tuatara
28-05-09, 05:04 AM
Absolutely, and I'm delighted with that new URL, because up until recently, the only online map that I knew about was really out of date.

But it's also the same with zinc.

Small amounts of zinc are vital to the immune system, but large amounts of zinc cause total havoc in the body. They mess with the copper balance, and other nutrients.

I think that's the beauty of organic farming done properly, because compost is made from a really diverse variety of plants and animal manures, and so long as the soil microbiota is correct, the plants can take what they need.

then humans who know what decent nutrition is, can get a really good nutrient spread.

I don't think it's coincidence that indigenous races, before they got beguiled by white bread, white sugar, smoking and alcohol, had fantastic dental arches, and great physiques, ... and many lived far longer lives than we do today.

This URL is now defunct, but the article illustrates the danger of listening to the experts above in a "collective" sense:
http://www.bighorn.org/bio.html (http://www.bighorn.org/bio.html)

Nation & World : Sunday, September 09, 2001


Fighting a battle for little bighorns
By Gary Polakovic
Los Angeles Times

WIND RIVER MOUNTAINS, Wyo. - The baby bighorn sheep stumbled and collapsed on the stony hillside, too sick and wobbly to keep up with its mother.
Jon Mionczynski, a wildlife researcher who followed the pair, had seen this before. For some reason, lambs born into the largest herd of bighorn sheep in the Rockies were not surviving.

It would be hard to find a wilder, safer sanctuary, or so it seemed. But as scientists teamed up with Mionczynski to unravel the mystery, they learned that there is no such thing as pristine wilderness and no refuge from the Industrial Age.

Mionczynski nicknamed the struggling lamb "Rambo" because of its tenacity and pluck. Each time it fell, it struggled to its feet, even after blinding an eye in a tumble.
One evening, he was close to capturing Rambo for testing, but the lamb and its mother started down the mountain and, out of reach, hunkered down in a fortress of boulders near a crag called Lion Pass.

"I returned at daybreak and saw the ewe still guarding the site," Mionczynski recalled. "She made a low-pitched, throaty bleat ... brrrr ... brrrr. It was like a sheep crying, and it just went right through me."

When he got to the boulders, he saw fresh mountain-lion droppings. "The ewe had a torn ear, blood running down her face and claw marks on the side of her head," he said. "The lamb was gone. That was the end of Rambo."

In a way, the natural order had prevailed: the strong picked off the weak. But something was unnatural, too: what was making lambs so sick within weeks of their birth? Why were ewes leading weak lambs on arduous treks through cougar country to reach mineral licks at the base of the mountain?

The herd, which used to number about 1,250, plummeted by 30 percent in two years during the early 1990s and never recovered. Since then only about two out of every 10 lambs have survived.

In 1998, the Wyoming Department of Game and Fish told Mionczynski to set up a one-man camp at nearly 12,000 feet, track the herd's every move, study every foot of their mountaintop refuge, examine plants they eat and send back blood and tissue samples of dead and dying animals.

The job called for a meticulous observer and a skilled outdoorsman, someone who did not fear grizzly bears or living in a tent in snowstorms and driving winds. For Mionczynski, it was the dream assignment.

"I have the best job in the world," Mionczynski said. "I'm just a peon in this research, but I like to think I am helping these animals."

Now, four years into the project, scientists believe they are close to solving the mystery. What they have discovered suggests that profound environmental changes are beginning to ripple through the food chain and into the bodies of lambs. They are learning that even reclusive bighorn sheep, masters of evasion, can't escape pollution that falls from the sky.

As a result, Mionczynski and others fear, these icons of wild America may be unable to survive in the wild without continual human intervention.

A summer thunderstorm peels off the Winds, a fitting name for the mountain range west of Dubois, briefly spilling rain and hail over town. Tourists pull off of U.S. 287 into the National Bighorn Sheep Interpretive Center, the newest and most ornate facility in this two-lane town. It's located past the Ramshorn Inn Tavern, not far from the high school where the Rams play, a couple blocks from the Ramshorn Food Farm on Ramshorn Street.

"This town loves these sheep and we're proud of them," said museum Director June Sampson. "In the winter, people can see them with spotting scopes from their living rooms. Hundreds of people come from all over to see the sheep."

Rocky Mountain bighorns have thrived in these mountains southeast of Grand Teton National Park for centuries. They are stocky and barrel-chested with petite feet that stick to rocks like suction cups. In the fall, rams charge one another and smash heads at speeds of 20 mph in battles that sometimes last all day and all night. Shoshone and Gros Ventre Indian tribes made powerful bows from the horns, which are still prized by hunters as trophies.

The herd inhabits the northern Winds in scattered bands. When they all converge on the sagebrush hills at the edge of town during winter, they constitute the largest group of wild sheep in North America. They once were so abundant that they were transplanted to establish new populations from South Dakota to New Mexico to Idaho.

Yet there are fewer and fewer sheep for tourists to enjoy. Barely 800 animals remain in the herd, which is still in decline.

No sooner had Mionczynski set up camp on Middle Mountain in June 1998 than he saw many lambs as feeble as Rambo. Born healthy, they grew sick shortly after ewes made their annual spring migration to Middle Mountain to forage. If pneumonia didn't kill them, predators did.

"Some were crawling on their knees. They were so sick they couldn't even get up to nurse. Their muscles just seemed so stiff and they had trouble breathing. They stuck their noses in the air, mouths open, gasping for air," Mionczynski said.

Ranchers in the lowlands reported that the ewes ate dirt at washed-out mineral licks. It helped explain why ewes were leading their sick lambs down the steep mountain to sagebrush flats that they normally visited only in winter. Something essential was missing from their diet. The route traversed some of the roughest country in the Winds, including a series of cougar ambush spots in Lion Pass.

Eventually, Mionczynski observed that lambs who nursed from the ewes that made the journey to lowland mineral licks did much better.

The challenge was to find the missing ingredient in the mountain forage.

Working in a makeshift lab fitted into a cave in the boulders, Mionczynski began testing plants the sheep eat. He discovered that the nutrient selenium had dipped to alarmingly low levels.

Selenium is a peculiar, sulfur-like element essential for many mammals. It is a naturally occurring nutrient with a twist. Just a little is needed to ensure bones, muscles and immune systems develop properly, but just a little more can be toxic.

Tests on Middle Mountain showed 5 parts per billion of selenium in forage favored by bighorns - 75 percent lower than the minimum requirement for a healthy immune system, according to veterinarians.

But how could selenium be in short supply? Soils across much of the West are awash in it. In nearby Dubois and other parts of Wyoming, range cattle are sometimes poisoned from ingesting too much of it.

The selenium content in plants fluctuates with weather, rising in dry years and falling in wet. The fluctuations correspond neatly with a 30-year lamb survival trend, with fewer surviving in wet years, scientists say.

At the same time, the chemical content of rainfall was changing. So was the composition of the soil that absorbed it.

For at least a decade, according to scientists, storms have been carrying larger and larger amounts of chemical contaminants and dumping them across the Rockies. Among the chemicals are nitrates and ammonium, which can saturate the environment with nutrients or create acidic conditions similar to those that plague forests in the Northeast and Canada. The phenomenon is known as acid rain.

At the bighorn camp on Middle Mountain, scientists tracking storms and wind currents have traced the sources of pollutants that blow in from hundreds of miles away.
On the one hand, the pollutants fertilize plants and microorganisms. On the other hand, they can saturate soil and water with nutrients, causing toxic algae blooms, harmful acids and changes in soil chemistry.

"We're pushing the first dominoes in the food chain, and there's good evidence it's increasing and probably in response to nitrogen deposition," said Mark Williams, a hydrogeochemist and fellow at the Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "We've reached a threshold and we're at that slippery slope where we are headed toward dead fish and dead trees."

Near Colorado's Rocky Mountain National Park, scientists have begun an experiment to see if pollutants are short-circuiting the selenium cycle and contributing to declines in the bighorn herd at St. Vrain Canyon, said Rob Roy Ramey, chairman of zoology at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.

"Urbanization and sheep deaths seem to go hand in hand. We know there's a lot of acidification of the front range of the Rockies, and this offers a perfectly reasonable and clear mechanism. It's a hypothesis, but it's very plausible," Ramey said.

cartersmom
28-05-09, 11:52 PM
I think I need to do a major overhaul and take a good look at the supplements Im taking...find a good whole food multi (without selenium!)and leave it at that and pay more attention to my diet. I eat well for the most part, (ie hardly any processed food).

TanyaL
06-06-09, 01:44 AM
But is the problem really too much selenium, or too little of the other nutrients we need to work with the selenium? Would a person end up with high blood selenium if they didn't have enough of the other things that work together to actually do work in our bodies? Things like zinc to make glutathione to get rid of heavy metals? I know my perspective is skewed, but I don't see Americans having excesses of glutathione.

eta: and I know selenium does other stuff, beyond thyroid stuff, but I'm not really sure what.

Barefoot
06-06-09, 03:25 AM
But is the problem really too much selenium, or too little of the other nutrients we need to work with the selenium? Would a person end up with high blood selenium if they didn't have enough of the other things that work together to actually do work in our bodies? Things like zinc to make glutathione to get rid of heavy metals? I know my perspective is skewed, but I don't see Americans having excesses of glutathione.

eta: and I know selenium does other stuff, beyond thyroid stuff, but I'm not really sure what.

Very good point.
Its my understanding that fluoride will be taken by the thyroid very readily so iodine and selenium may not get a decent chance to get in there.
I know it also blocks an important enzyme which may or may may not have something to do with it.

Momtezuma Tuatara
06-06-09, 02:00 PM
It can be "too little" other minerals. It is a balancing act. For instance there is a book called The Calcium Lie (http://www.amazon.com/Calcium-Lie-Doctor-Doesnt-Could/dp/0981581854/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244264997&sr=1-1)which points out that by far the majority of people with osteoarthritis have too much calcium. The problem is that all their other minerals are out of whack. This book is worth reading. It will make you analyse very clearly.

TanyaL
06-06-09, 02:47 PM
Does osteo = osteoarthritis? I will check out the book, my MIL has advanced osteoarthritis and her knees are pretty much shot. I am sure it figures into the stuff my husband's family is prone to, and my goal is to figure it out so he doesn't end up with all the problems everyone else does. And if I'm lucky and good, I'll figure it out soon enough to help my MIL and other inlaws too.

Momtezuma Tuatara
06-06-09, 02:49 PM
Yes, I editted it for clarity

TanyaL
06-06-09, 02:50 PM
MT, not wanting to blather before, I didn't mention that the osteoarthritis goes along with high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes in his family (and clearly everyone is obese, though to be fair much of my family is as well). And all that is in the first paragraph summary of the book. I am hoping magnesium is a big part of the answer, that had been my first-pass guess, but I haven't put it into practice yet.

Wow, thank you. :D

ETA: and wow, you're quick!

TanyaL
08-06-09, 09:31 AM
I just ran across one more map of the (continental-only) US, selenium is broken down by county, and you can zoom in a bit and it'll show you the name of the county and the value they measured.

http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html

I think it's the same data as the earlier map, just a slightly different presentation, and I like the zoom.

Cobluegirl
08-06-09, 10:05 AM
so where is it supposed to be? we are in the very dark blue part...

Selenium (http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/describe.php?fieldname=Se_AA)Se (ppm)1.204 1.942 0.101 15.258 this is my county....