What do you do instead of using paracetomol?

[ZGT Mummy]

Well, I've always thought of all drugs, paracetomol was OK. Of course I've been on a real mind opening journey over the last couple of months so am now wondering about it. My boys have had pamol before, though I have always used it sparingly and only when they're in great discomfort or have temps over 38.

So if I'm not going to use pamol, what do I do then? Mainly I'm thinking in the case of temperatures. What alternatives are there?

Sorry if I sound a bit moronic but I'm only just starting on my journey so I have a lot to learn!

[3monkeys]

I dont use drugs to treat fever. I generally use warm lemon drinks etc to soothe sore throats. I did use pamol on my almost 2 year old the other week. She was really really sore and screaming from pain, but that was the first time she had ever had it. I think like most things, even though its not the best choice, as long as its your last choice then you know you have done your best. And its all a learning experience. I dont use it for teeting either, or to help my kids sleep.

For fever I just keep an eye on them. Take some layers off and follow their cues really. Let them drink if they are thirsty, let them eat if the are hungry, let them sleep if the need to etc etc. I dont know how much you have read about fever, but fevers are not as bad as we are told and are actually are vital immune response for some things.

[deesalie]

We very rarely treat fevers at all. They do, afterall, serve a purpose. If the child is in great discomfort then we might give them homeopathics, otherwise I tend to bunker down the house and prepare to stay with them while they rest, sleep and want cuddles. They have unlimited access to breastmilk as well :)

[Wonder-Full]

I've actually been wondering this too but in regards to having a Flu with muscles aches etc. I haven't used pamol for my kids on fevers or otherwise but then we haven't had any particularly drawn out uncomfortable periods that they couldn't be cuddled through (and like Deesalie I use homeopathic if they are uncomfortable). I wonder what Flu aches would be like? Actually, I have a feeling my ds's kidney's might not cope with pamol anyhow so would be loathe to give it to him...

[3monkeys]

I woner about flu aches too. But then I never take paracetamol for flu aches. Last week my youngest had ulcers on her tongue and they were causing her so much pain that after 2 days I gave her some. It definately helped her. thank goodness for breastfeeding. I am convinced it was breastmilk that got her through it without getting worse.

[Seaweed]

Long before I knew anything about anything :giggle:I avoided asprins, paracetemol, disprins etc. I have never used any antipyretics or pain relief things on my kids. People ask me what I use instead but as I have never used them, I had nothing to replace. Fevers I just use a cool cloth or let them get on with it. They don't get headaches & have never needed any pain relief. I give them cuddles if they need them or sit with them close by if they don't. I make them herbal teas to drink of whatever I have at hand. Peppermint & lemon verbena from the garden or even just honey & lemon. I read them soothing stories & sing them to sleep. dd#2 knows moon fell down off by heart from when she was sick about 6 months ago. So far we've been all good with this method :)

[ZGT Mummy]

Thanks all. Yes I am a little aware that a fever is a normal response, however I'm still trying to shake all the misconceptions drummed into me over the last 30 odd years! Is there a point at which fever becomes dangerous though? Is there a point at which you'd need to either administer an antipyretic or seek medical help?

Yes any further thoughts on the flu aches and pains and how to relieve them?

Also what homeopathics do you use and what dosage do you adminster?

Thanks again!

[cartersmom]

Thanks all. Yes I am a little aware that a fever is a normal response, however I'm still trying to shake all the misconceptions drummed into me over the last 30 odd years! Is there a point at which fever becomes dangerous though? Is there a point at which you'd need to either administer an antipyretic or seek medical help?

Yes any further thoughts on the flu aches and pains and how to relieve them?

Also what homeopathics do you use and what dosage do you adminster?

Thanks again!


From what I understand the body will not let the temp get too high (ie dangerous unless of course if if from heat stroke or something). a fever can get as high as 105 (sorry Im in the US and we use farrenheit!) with no ill effects. It is the fever raising or falling too quickly that may cause a febrile seizure (which are usually scary but not dangerous). My son has had a 104 temp and I didn't give him anything.
If he is uncomfortable I have used Ferrum Phos 30c for a fever and it has brought it down. I have never had to repeat a dose.

[3monkeys]

I dont measure temps either. I think sometimes the number can be scary and its best not to know.

Do you have a homeopath? I had my one set me up a homeopathic first aid kit. Its great. Its got about 10 of the most basic remedies and what to use them for. We take it on family holidays and everything. I would strongly suggest getting one.

As for pamol. I do think it has its uses. BUt its not the sort of thing I keep in the fridge IYKWIM. Because if its there then its easy to fall back on, and if it isnt then you know you have exhausted all your abilities when you need to go and get some.

With my youngest the other week, we had 2 days of screaming in pain, and constant unhappiness. She couldnt eat, although she was hungry, she could breastfeed, but one one side had to change her latch so it wouldnt hurt her, and then due to that chomped me to bits. We were averaging half hour blocks of sleep followed by hlaf hour of crying. She sucks her lip and tongue in her sleep and kept sucking the ulcers. On the 3rd day I just needed to take her pain away so I gave her 2mls of pamol.

I dont really know the point of this post. I guess to let you know that by giving it your not "failing", but dont make it a first point of call. There are so many other things to try first.

[Sandra17]

I did a search on paracetamol on this site yesterday adn found the recipe for a lemon wrap which I think I've memorised for dealing with high fever (I never measure either).
Squeeze a lemon into a pot plus 0.5-1 cup of water. Boil it up and then soak cotton socks in it. Wring out (and presumably cool so they don't burn the feet) then put on the child's feet (or adult's) then put woollen socks on top then cover with a blanket to keep them warm. It works by drawing the fever aaway from the head.

I try to always keep lemons in the house as they always turn out useful when anyone is poorly. I'm on my second attempt to grow a lemon tree to shore up access a bit more.

[ZGT Mummy]

Thanks again ladies. 3monkeys I do have a homeopathic first aid kit - mummy brain completely forgot about it! Was lucky actually as DS1 got a nail in his foot on Sunday so out came the Ledum!

Belladonna is what is in it for fever. And low and behold, DS1 comes down with a fever tonight! Just as we sat down at the dinner table he said he was tired and wanted to go to bed. By the time I sat at the table he was asleep so I picked him up, gave him some belladonna and a drink of water and put him to bed. Not a huge fever, about 38 I'd say, not that horrible burning heat, just a very warm forehead! He's just in bed with a sheet on him at the mo, so will keep checking on him and see what happens. But I'll be very proud of myself if I can get through this without resorting to the pamol (which we do have in the cupboard so not as inaccessible as it probably should be!).

Oh and I converted and 104 is 40 which would freak me out at the moment I'd have to say. At 39 I'm usually bundling them down to the A&E!

He's a pretty healthy boy though, can't remember the last time he was sick actually, and never been really sick, no secondary infections etc, so I think on the whole his immune system seems to work pretty well. Should be even better considering all the supplements I've been giving him lately!

[ZGT Mummy]

Well my boy is sick with something! He's had a fever all last night and all day today. In fact worse today, around 39 now with the bright red cheeks and burning forehead.

I gave him belladonna all morning but when I went down to the health shop she said to give that a break as it hadn't worked after several doses. Too late for Aconite but got some Ferr. Phos. and have been trying that all afternoon and evening but he's still burning.

No sweating yet though. I guess I want him to sweat it out? Is that how it works?

I got some SA too but miscalculated the dose so sent the poor boy running to the loo a couple of hours later :eek:

He's had another dose of SA this evening, 500mg, and he's had good amounts of water throughout the day.

I've up'd his immune tonic per naturopath's instructions.

I've been trying not to get him too hot but he keeps complaining he's cold and pulling the duvet up over himself (sitting on the couch watching Barney over and over again :blink:).

Any other suggestions. I just want to ease his discomfort but nothing I've done so far seems to have done anything for him. Bless him though he's been so good with taking everything I've thrown at him!

[magical1]

OK here is what you do...

Get a mixture of 1/2 cup of water 1/2 cup of apple cider vinegar. Soak a flannel in it.

Wring it out put on childs forehead.

When it has been on for about five minutes take it off and swing it around (seriously) and around. If you touch it you will find that it is ultra cold again.

Put back on forehead and repeat three times ie put on head and then swing.

Then put it back into the mixture, wring out again and keep repeating until the acute hotness comes down.

Hey it's a bit of hard work but you will be so happy at the result. You can do this as much as you like.

[cartersmom]

OK here is what you do...

Get a mixture of 1/2 cup of water 1/2 cup of apple cider vinegar. Soak a flannel in it.

Wring it out put on childs forehead.

When it has been on for about five minutes take it off and swing it around (seriously) and around. If you touch it you will find that it is ultra cold again.

Put back on forehead and repeat three times ie put on head and then swing.

Then put it back into the mixture, wring out again and keep repeating until the acute hotness comes down.

Hey it's a bit of hard work but you will be so happy at the result. You can do this as much as you like.

:giggle: that sounds so funny....do you know why it seems to work??

[Dozytoes]

Well my boy is sick with something! He's had a fever all last night and all day today. In fact worse today, around 39 now with the bright red cheeks and burning forehead.

I gave him belladonna all morning but when I went down to the health shop she said to give that a break as it hadn't worked after several doses. Too late for Aconite but got some Ferr. Phos. and have been trying that all afternoon and evening but he's still burning.

If you gave belladonna all morning, it is possible that you "proved" the remedy - a situation where persistent dosing of the remedy can cause the condition you are trying to relieve. If six doses of low dose - 6c or 10c don't bring any relief, it may well be the wrong remedy. And keeping on giving beyond this point can cause the "proving" of the remedy.

What other symptoms does he have? What is his mood like? Anything in particular that makes him feel worse/better? Appetite? Thirst? Anything distinctive that stands out to you as being "different" from normal?


No sweating yet though. I guess I want him to sweat it out? Is that how it works?

It's good if they can "sweat it out" as this helps the fever break, but in my experience it doesn't always happen.


I've been trying not to get him too hot but he keeps complaining he's cold and pulling the duvet up over himself (sitting on the couch watching Barney over and over again :blink:).

If he's got the shivers let him have his duvet. He'll soon chuck it off again if he gets overheated. His body will do what it needs to do - all you can do is facilitate it! :)


Any other suggestions. I just want to ease his discomfort but nothing I've done so far seems to have done anything for him. Bless him though he's been so good with taking everything I've thrown at him!

Follow his cues. Feed if he feels like feeding, drink if he feels like drinking, lots of hugs and cuddles if he wants them. My dd always likes to have her favourite TV shows on when she's poorly - takes her mind off it! She usually needs and responds well to Belladonna, but it's really a case of repertorising to find the right remedy. Perhaps invest in a good homeopathy book for the future - I've always found Miranda Castro's "Complete Homeopathy Handbook" very useful.

HTH.

[ZGT Mummy]

Well we made it through with no pamol! His temp is normal this morning, and in fact was down to 38 by the time I went to bed. He slept through the night too.

I have now learned to trust a bit more :D

Mind you, this was my 4.5 year old so a bit older and more robust. I'm not sure on my conviction if it had been my 5 month old :blush:


OK here is what you do...

Get a mixture of 1/2 cup of water 1/2 cup of apple cider vinegar. Soak a flannel in it.

Wring it out put on childs forehead.

When it has been on for about five minutes take it off and swing it around (seriously) and around. If you touch it you will find that it is ultra cold again.

Put back on forehead and repeat three times ie put on head and then swing.

Then put it back into the mixture, wring out again and keep repeating until the acute hotness comes down.

Hey it's a bit of hard work but you will be so happy at the result. You can do this as much as you like.

Thanks for that tip for fevers, I'll bear that in mind for next time. Does it have to be apple cider vinegar? I think I do actually have some in the cupboard anyway, but just wondering if any vinegar will do.


If you gave belladonna all morning, it is possible that you "proved" the remedy - a situation where persistent dosing of the remedy can cause the condition you are trying to relieve. If six doses of low dose - 6c or 10c don't bring any relief, it may well be the wrong remedy. And keeping on giving beyond this point can cause the "proving" of the remedy.

Interesting and certainly makes sense! The belladonna I have is 30c and yes we'd reached the 6 doses by the time I went to the health shop.

So I am very proud of myself that I have got through this one without drugs. May seem small to some of you who have always done this, but a very big step for me :D

[magical1]

Hi

The remedy works because vinegar draws out heat. You could use other vinegars but acv will be the most gentle on the skin.

When you swing the flannel it cools it right back down again.

Vinegar consumed internally will also have a cooling effect.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Well we made it through with no pamol! His temp is normal this morning, and in fact was down to 38 by the time I went to bed. He slept through the night too.

I have now learned to trust a bit more :D

Mind you, this was my 4.5 year old so a bit older and more robust. I'm not sure on my conviction if it had been my 5 month old :blush:

So I am very proud of myself that I have got through this one without drugs. May seem small to some of you who have always done this, but a very big step for me :D

it's a great first step, because you've learned that, given a chance, the body figures things out for itself.

Nothing up to 105 F phases me. I never do much for fevers apart from making sure said child has lots of drinks, and like Seaweed, I just do what it takes to keep the child happy enough.... 106 F might make me resort to the first post of this thread...

http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=520&highlight=paracetamol

[ZGT Mummy]

Nothing up to 105 F phases me. I never do much for fevers apart from making sure said child has lots of drinks, and like Seaweed, I just do what it takes to keep the child happy enough.... 106 F might make me resort to the first post of this thread...


Yep, that's what I did. He clicked on though and had me running round all day :eyeroll:

When you say 106 (being 41 celcius :eek:) might make you resort to the first post do you mean pamol? Sorry if I seem a bit slow on the uptake, it's been a long week :mallet:

[Tici]

When you say 106 (being 41 celcius :eek:) might make you resort to the first post do you mean pamol? Sorry if I seem a bit slow on the uptake, it's been a long week :mallet:

I was also wondering that too.. :o

I am at war in my mind over panadol as a pain reliever.

My 16 month old has had 2 bouts of tonsillitis with whopping fevers. The second time I held off on the panadol.
During the night we woke to her having a febrile seizure , it was so damn scary to say the least.
I'm in no way saying panadol would have prevented that, I know it wouldn't of and the next time she has a fever i'll be doing the ac vinegar or lemon wrap to bring the fever down.

But, and here is where my little debate is, she wouldn't breastfeed as her throat was so sore she couldn't swallow. Panadol was what enabled her to feed again.

I don't know what else can be used to ease a very sore throat ?

[Spy]

Nothing up to 105 F phases me.

I think my kids' record was 41.5, which, I believe is something like 106.5F, and it was fairly young too, the very first fever of my firstborn, at about 10 months old, measured that high (under arm, too!), and he was pretty delirious (which is why we woke up, touched him and found out). :D This kid is now 19 and somehow has survived this (and subsequent very-very few, much lower) febrile episode with no harm done whatsoever. In fact, as far as I remember, THAT episode lasted a little over 24 hours, had no other symptoms (other than fever related discomfort) and/or complications whatsoever.

I just do not believe that infectious temperature can hurt the body that creates it. Period. Unlike overheating caused by external hypertermia or chemical poisoning where the body's 'turn off the heat' mechanism may not work as it is not the body that creates the heat. I don't think there is a one-figure-for-everyone either, even though there is not much discrepancy, some people can and do stand a little higher figures than others (who, then, usually don't raise their fever that high). I also believe that letting fever (infectious fever, that is) run its course greatly affects the way this child handles future infections, both in terms of fever and in general. I also did notice that kids who didn't get ever get drugs for their colds and fevers are hardly ever prone to autoimmune diseases, but that I believe is now well described in literature, so my anecdotes don't matter. :giggle:

ZGT Mummy, MT was referring to lemon wraps, not paracetamol, I would think. :)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Kids who are molly-coddled; have their temperatures artificially reduced, and everything else "done" for them, grow up fearful of disease, with limited patience, and very limited coping skills. Learning to "cope" physically with normal every day things which will not kill you, is very important for kids.

Unfortunately, many of these kids end up later, having to learn to cope with chronic or autoimmune conditions which their bodies simply can't handle. it's not a trade-off that I think is worth it.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yep, that's what I did. He clicked on though and had me running round all day :eyeroll:

When you say 106 (being 41 celcius :eek:) might make you resort to the first post do you mean pamol? Sorry if I seem a bit slow on the uptake, it's been a long week :mallet:

Here is what I said:

Nothing up to 105 F phases me..like Seaweed, I just do what it takes to keep the child happy enough.... 106 F might make me resort to the first post of this thread...

http://forums.beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?t=520&highlight=paracetamol

click on the thread, and read the first post :D

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yep, that's what I did. He clicked on though and had me running round all day :eyeroll:
Ah yes, the twist the little finger gambit.

I'm sure you'll have a correction strategy worked out to "teach" him that needs are met, but wants and demands are not "heard"....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was also wondering that too.. :o

But, and here is where my little debate is, she wouldn't breastfeed as her throat was so sore she couldn't swallow. Panadol was what enabled her to feed again.

I don't know what else can be used to ease a very sore throat ?

I'm presuming you used liquid pamol, which acted as a temporary local anaesthetic?

I've used, in the past, oral spray on lidocaine (when baby cut inside cheek really badly falling against a wooden fence... and wouldn't let me touch it otherwise), but that has the disadvantage of being more numbing and babies don't like that either. Yes, there are other options, but some of them aren't much better. Some people get kids to swallow bonjela, but that's horrid stuff.

How about doing a search on google, and find out if there is something natural out there, which might do that? Has anyone asked a herbalist, or a company like Traditional medicinals?

I've got stuff from them before, but never anything for tonsillitis, becuase my kids have never had tonsillitis, and neither has anyone else in the family in the last 29 years...

[Tici]

Kids who are molly-coddled; have their temperatures artificially reduced, and everything else "done" for them, grow up fearful of disease, with limited patience, and very limited coping skills. Learning to "cope" physically with normal every day things which will not kill you, is very important for kids.

True. I was one of those kids! Though I am endevouring to turn this around and parent differently so history doesn't repeat itself.


I'm presuming you used liquid pamol, which acted as a temporary local anaesthetic? Is Pamol the NZ name for Paracetamol ?
Yep I gave her children's paracetamol.



How about doing a search on google, and find out if there is something natural out there, which might do that? Has anyone asked a herbalist, or a company like Traditional medicinals?

Yes, I've googled but I haven't found alot to do with soothing a baby's sore throat though. I'll email Harker & Ryan Herbal Products and see what they say. Will let everyone know.

[3monkeys]

Iris, understand your dilemma. When my youngest (21 months) was ill the other week she was in so much pain, crying constantly for 2 days and saying ow ow ow ow ow and pointing to her mouth. I did salt water rinses etc etc, gave her everything. In the end I just needed her to be able to rest cause she was EXHAUSTED. Luckily for me though, she was able to breastfeed. I dont know where I would ahve been without breastfeeding. Probbly dehydrated and all sorts. Also Hilary suggested a juicer when my son was sick and OMG I dont know why I never had one before. the kids hand me the food, I juice it, they drink it. Things my son wont eat, he drinks. Love it. And so good for sore mouths.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

A juicer is a vital part of the kitchen armoury for sicknesses of all kinds. I've had one for over 35 years, and many's the time it's been so so good. And if you have hens, then they eat the pulp like it's out of fashion.... you will have the most ORANGE eggs out.

[Mr. Beyondtheory]

Yes Iris, pamol is the trademarked name for liquid paracetamol, here in NZ. It's marketed as the kiddies painkiller.

It is marketed by Merck.

I have been reliably told that many parents here in NZ use pamol as a sleep inducer for their young ones. They use it quite routinely if a baby is out of sorts, grizzly, won't sleep etcetc. Which I think is criminal really. Some serious damage to their livers could be occuring.

It reminds me of the way opium was used by English working class parents in the Victorian era. They used it as a sleep inducer too, and with such huge families you can kind of see the incentive. But opium has lots of side effects of course, including severe constipation, addiction, depressed immunity etc. There is little doubt opium killed not a few children in those days.

As to when to be worried about fevers, Hilary has a quote in a NZ newspaper from presumably a doctor which I thought puts it in a nutshell:

"Fever is rarely harmful. Only extremely high fevers of 42.2C or 108F or higher have been known to cause brain damage. Only fevers of 40.5C or 105F and higher need immediate attention, mainly because they are a clue that a serious infection could be present" (such as meningitis) ~Sunday Star-Times, may 3, 1998.

In a personal experience of fever...I throw quite high fevers, even as an adult. I have been delirious a few times. When I was in my late 30s I got chickenpox, and got a nice delirium inducing fever of 40.8C. It was unpleasant to say the least, and boy was I hot, but I never felt I was in any danger.

After a couple of days I stopped being lazy, and looked up in my books what homeopathic remedy to take. The right remedy brought down the fever by .5 of a degree within a few minutes, and 2 hours lately the fever broke completely.

[Mr. Beyondtheory]

A homeopath here in Auckland who works a lot with children recommends for parents a remedy called "Viburcol" made by Heel. It is not a homeopathic remedy, but is some kind of homeotoxicological remedy or something. Anyway, she said it won't suppress a fever (which is your bodies immune-system doing it's job really) but will sort of fine-tune the immune response, and "smooth downs" pain, restlessness, and fever, by helping their bodies detoxify more efficiently.

[Spy]

Viburcol is a mix of low potencised (material doses) remedies, some of which actually antidote some others. It is so popular in Russia, there is virtually no cold going without it in the mainstream, which is why I am aware of it :)

Here's the formula:

Chamomilla D1 Atropa belladonna D2 Solanum dulcamara D4, Plantago major D3, Pulsatilla pratensis D2, Calcium carbonicum D8.

[ZGT Mummy]

I have been reliably told that many parents here in NZ use pamol as a sleep inducer for their young ones. They use it quite routinely if a baby is out of sorts, grizzly, won't sleep etcetc. Which I think is criminal really. Some serious damage to their livers could be occuring.

I had 2 of those such parents in my coffee group. One would give it to her son every night from 6 weeks till just under a year old! She said it helped him sleep through the night. :crazy::mallet::bangshead:

Her and one other mum used to talk all the time about how pamol didn't work for their kids anymore so now they use brufen instead :eek: And that's great cause it lasts 8 hours, oh and you can dose them up on both pamol and brufen just in case :eek: :eek: :eek:

As you can see I didn't really fit in to that coffee group. Luckily I got out a couple of years ago, when they weren't being very accomodating with my DS2's allergies, which made me realise the coffee group that was supposed to be a support network, weren't being very supportive at all.


A homeopath here in Auckland who works a lot with children recommends for parents a remedy called "Viburcol" made by Heel. It is not a homeopathic remedy, but is some kind of homeotoxicological remedy or something. Anyway, she said it won't suppress a fever (which is your bodies immune-system doing it's job really) but will sort of fine-tune the immune response, and "smooth downs" pain, restlessness, and fever, by helping their bodies detoxify more efficiently.

So at what point would you use this and where do you get it from. Who's the homeopath?

[Tici]

I have been reliably told that many parents here in NZ use pamol as a sleep inducer for their young ones. They use it quite routinely if a baby is out of sorts, grizzly, won't sleep etcetc. Which I think is criminal really. Some serious damage to their livers could be occuring.

Just very sad really. But paracetamol doesnt make you tired, so that doesnt even really make sense as to why they would do it.
I wonder if they just feel their kids are better, more well behaved, tired or whatever because they are feeling better about giving them something.

[Mr. Beyondtheory]

So at what point would you use this and where do you get it from. Who's the homeopath?

I haven't used it. The homeopath was Leila Joffe on the N. Shore. But hey, I am a homeopath myself these days in my spare time. I personally would recommend what has already been recommended here in this thread. Get a small kit with all the basic cold & flu remedies included, and learn which ones are need when. It is not hard to do.

I must admit, Ferrum Phos. is pretty effective in the early stages of just about any cold.

Once the stage of fever has been reached you can usually choose from either aconite, belladonna, gelsemium, and pulsatilla.

Pulsatilla is a really big children's remedy...it really fits childrens general behaviour....clingy, whiny, easily cry, changeable moods. Get that with a fever or cold, and you have your remedy.

Belladonna is for when the kid is red in the face, skin is radiating heat, and they have a thobbing headache. It worked for me when I had chickenpox, because I had those symptoms, though the keynote for me was that cold water seemed to scald my throat, so hot was I.

Aconite is when the fever comes on suddenly, and there is a lot of fear.

Rhus tox. is a great child cold remedy: restlessness is one of the main features. The need to move.

Gelsemium is probably the no. 1 flu remedy, but it is more for adults. Here onset is slowish, there is great prostration, diplopia (double vision), and husky hue.