Paracetamol/acetaminophen warning.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Front page of New Zealand Herald today (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582251)

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/Angladrion/Paracetamol3709.jpg

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Those of you who have fopta, know that the defamation lawyer did not allow me to say what I wanted to say in that book. I'm going to put up here, the pdfs of the letters sent to me regarding this dispute.

If you are seriously interested in pharmaceutical collusion, to keep people from knowing the truth, read these letters, because what they essentially did was not only tell lies, but gag me from saying anything in the duration.

BUT during that time, the managing director of Pfizer was allowed to flaunt himself, nationwide, to tell everyone that I, and IAS were wrong, when in fact, we were absolutely correct in everything we said.

Presumably that's why Pfizer never took us to court. It was all a load of blow, to shut up dissenters. And the medical profession wonders why we think that they collude against ordinary people.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was away on holiday at the time, IAS took legal advise , and initially sent this letter.

1 September 2004

The General Manager
Pfizer Consumer Health Care
P.O. Box 3998
Auckland

Attention: Mr Peter Baltus


Dear Mr Baltus,

Immunisation Awareness Society / PAMOL


We have received your letter of 26 August 2004.

We would like to say at the outset that it was never the intent of the Immunisation Awareness Society Inc (“IAS”) to say or imply that Pamol (or indeed Paracetamol) caused or was one of the causes of meningococcal disease.

Throughout our website information and the two PDF files that may be downloaded from that website, it has been our intention to alert readers to widespread-medical opinion that Acetaminophen / Paracetamol (depending on whether one refers to American or English terminology) is one of a number of risk factors in the development of the meningococcal disease, in that;

a)the consumption of Acetaminophen / Paracetamol may mask the symptoms of meningococcal disease; and

b)the consumption of Acetaminophen / Paracetamol may prevent the therapeutic effects of the natural progression of a fever in combating a bacterial infection such as meningococcal disease.

This position is supported by the article referred to in our website as “Ped Infec Dis, Oct 2000, Vol 19, No10, 983-990” from which the following quotation was taken:

…we cannot exclude the possibility that acetaminophen use itself is a risk factor for meningococcal disease.

We have read the media release you provided us with and, again state, we have never attributed analgesic use as a cause of meningococcal disease, simply as one of a number of factors that may contribute to the development, ie the progression from one being a carrier of the bacteria to having the invasive meningococcal disease.

On page 2 of your letter you refer to an advertisement placed in the NZ Herald, page A19, July 31-August1 2004. This advertisement has nothing to do with IAS. As will be seen from the advertisement itself, it was placed by the Vaccination Alternatives Society. We have no affiliation with or connection to this society.

With respect to the undertakings that you require from IAS, we respond as follows:

1.As of yesterday and upon receipt of your letter, we have deleted all references to Pamol from our website and the two PDF files downloadable from that site.

We are also in the process of re-wording certain passages on the website and the PDF files to ensure that there is no indirect reference to Pamol. We anticipate that this will be completed by Friday. Once this is completed we will advise you so that you may peruse the website and PDF files yourself.

The IAS and its officers undertake not to provide any information on its website or PDF files or other literature generated by IAS that would tend to suggest or infer that Pamol or paracetamol is a cause of meningococcal meningitis.

2.We confirm that we have no current or planned advertising or other publications planned which might make reference to Pamol.

3.We agree to place the following corrective “advertising” at the top of our website, the link to our meningococcal web page and our two PDF files by 5 pm, Friday, 3 September 2004:

In earlier versions of our website and this PDF file the IAS made reference to the medication, “Pamol”. At no time did IAS intend to imply or state that Pamol causes meningococcal disease. IAS unequivocally states that neither Pamol nor other medications containing paracetamol cause meningococcal disease.

IAS has withdrawn any and all references to Pamol in this and all other material and/or publications for which it is responsible.

In an attempt to provide parents with information and options, IAS may be guilty of an over-zealous approach in its wording, visuals and examples. IAS apologises for any misleading or deceptive representations that it may have been responsible for.

IAS unreservedly withdraws and apologies for any statement that may have been interpreted as direct advice to consumers not to use Pamol in the treatment of their babies’ and childrens’ ailments.

4.The only publications made or caused to be made by IAS are our website and PDF files. We have over the past two months given various interviews upon request to third parties. As you will appreciate, we have no editorial control over the content of these interviews as and when they are published. We confirm that, to the best of our memory and belief, we have never referred to Pamol in any of these interviews.

We trust that the above undertakings and confirmations resolve this matter to your satisfaction.

Yours faithfully,

Pfizer replied with this letter:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Which naturally enough, infuriated me, so I set about writing a long letter putting the whole ball back in their court. That letter is here:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Please note in the first Pfizer letter, the press release.

I attach as the first pdf here, a separate copy of this press release, called "Baker Press Release".

Also note, which doctor sent it to Pfizer. A doctor who is heavily funded by vaccine manufacturers.

This is the mysterious press release, which none of the press had seen, which was on Otago University letterhead, and which at no point, conformed to Otago University protocol and appeared on their website as their press releases usually do.

Otago website has a press release page, where everything is put up, as they are released with a number and a page. This press release was nowhere to be seen.

Indeed, no-one at Otage medical school had any knowledge of this press release and referred us back to Dr Michael Baker, who never replied to enquiries about this press release.

SO I will also attach a pdf of the medical study concerned, so that you can work out WHO is telling the truth. IAS, or the author of the study, who maintains his study doesn't say what we said it said:

The study is called AucklandMeningitisinfectdiseas02:

[MinorityView]

Horrible!

There is a nice little mystery novel by Janet Neel entitled To Die For, where one of the murders is accomplished by an overdose of paracetamol given to a fellow with a bad liver.

Part of the plot is that there is a lot of paracetamol floating around and the victim may have been given doses by multiple helpful folks. Muddies the waters nicely.

Which Pfizer also manages to do quite well in their letter.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Here are Pfizer's third and fourth responses.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Here is the New York Times article on this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/health/01fda.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/health/01fda.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print)



July 1, 2009
Ban Is Advised on 2 Top Pills for Pain Relief

By GARDINER HARRIS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/gardiner_harris/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
ADELPHI, Md. — A federal advisory panel voted narrowly on Tuesday to recommend a ban on Percocet and Vicodin, two of the most popular prescription painkillers in the world, because of their effects on the liver.

The two drugs combine a narcotic with acetaminophen, the ingredient found in popular over-the-counter products like Tylenol and Excedrin. High doses of acetaminophen are a leading cause of liver damage, and the panel noted that patients who take Percocet and Vicodin for long periods often need higher and higher doses to achieve the same effect.

Acetaminophen is combined with different narcotics in at least seven other prescription drugs, and all of these combination pills will be banned if the Food and Drug Administration (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/food_and_drug_administration/index.html?inline=nyt-org) heeds the advice of its experts. Vicodin and its generic equivalents alone are prescribed more than 100 million times a year in the United States.

Laureen Cassidy, a spokeswoman for Abbott Laboratories, which makes Vicodin, said, “The F.D.A. will make a final determination and Abbott will follow the agency’s guidance.”

The agency is not required to follow the recommendations of its advisory panels, but it usually does.

The panel’s 20-17 vote to recommend a ban on the combination drugs was one of 11 it took at a meeting called to advise the F.D.A. on problems arising from the extraordinary popularity of acetaminophen. In 2005, American consumers bought 28 billion doses of products containing the ingredient.

While the medicine is effective in treating headaches and reducing fevers, even recommended doses can cause liver damage in some people. And more than 400 people die and 42,000 are hospitalized every year in the United States from overdoses.

In hopes of reducing some of these accidents, the committee voted 24 to 13 to recommend that the F.D.A. reduce the highest allowed dose of acetaminophen in over-the-counter pills like Tylenol to 325 milligrams, from 500. And members voted 21 to 16 to reduce the maximum daily dosage to less than 4,000 milligrams.

But they voted 20 to 17 against limiting the number of pills allowed in each bottle, with members saying such a limit would probably have little effect and could hurt rural and poor patients. Bottles of 1,000 pills are often sold at discount chains.

“We have no data to show that people who overdose shop at Costco,” said Dr. Edward Covington, a panel member from the Cleveland Clinic Foundation.

Dr. Lewis S. Nelson, a toxicologist from the New York University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/new_york_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) School of Medicine who served as the panel’s acting chairman, said experts had been warning of the dangers of combination painkillers like Percocet, which is made by Endo Pharmaceuticals, and Vicodin for years.

Still, the recommendation is likely to come as a shock to many patients, who may be unaware of the dangers of high doses of acetaminophen — even if they know the drugs contain the ingredient.

Some doctors already avoid prescribing pills that combine acetaminophen with narcotics like oxycodone (found in Percocet) and hydrocodone (in Vicodin).

“It ties the doctor’s hands when you put the two drugs together,” said Dr. Scott M. Fishman, a professor of anesthesiology at the University of California, Davis (http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_california/index.html?inline=nyt-org), and a former president of the American Academy of Pain Medicine. “There’s no reason you can’t get the same effect by using them separately.”

Dr. Fishman said the combinations were prescribed so often for the sake of convenience, but added, “When you’re using controlled substances, you want to err on the side of safety rather than convenience.”
Still, some doctors predicted that the recommendation would put extra burdens on physicians and patients.

“More people will be suffering from pain,” said Dr. Sean Mackey, chief of pain management at Stanford University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/stanford_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) Medical School. “More people will be seeing their doctors more frequently and running up health care costs.”
In a statement, Johnson & Johnson, Tylenol’s maker, said it “strongly disagrees” with the proposed restrictions on acetaminophen, adding that they would be likely to “lead to more serious adverse events as consumers shift to other over-the-counter products,” like Advil and aspirin.

Linda A. Suydam, president of the Consumer Healthcare Products Association, said the committee had ignored studies showing that doses sold by her members — two pills of 500 milligrams, up to four times a day — were safe. “I think this is a very effective dose and one needed for individuals who experience chronic pain,” she said.

The committee also turned its attention to over-the-counter children’s medicines containing acetaminophen, voting 36 to 1 to limit them to a single formulation. Right now the liquids are sold in two different concentrations, leading to confusion among doctors and parents.

“I don’t think it’s safe to have two formulations out there,” said Dr. Nelson, the acting chairman.

The members were divided over which formula to recommend, the concentrated or the less concentrated one. F.D.A. officials suggested that they would likely settle on the less concentrated formula so that if parents make a mistake, they would be less likely to overdose.

Acetaminophen is included in a vast array of over-the-counter cough (http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/symptoms/cough/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and cold products, including Nyquil, Excedrin and many others. A small share of accidental poisonings result when people take two or more of these combination products without understanding the risk.

The F.D.A. asked the committee whether it should ban combination products that include acetaminophen. The vote was 24 to 13 against such a ban, with many members saying consumers saw the products as valuable.

“Based on the data provided, the combination O.T.C. medications really contributed very little to overall poisonings,” said Dr. Osemwota A. Omoigui, a panel member from the Los Angeles Pain Clinic.

A 2005 study found that most poisonings resulted from patients’ taking Vicodin and similar products that combine a narcotic with acetaminophen.
“I think this is the one place where we can engineer in safety,” said Dr. Judith M. Kramer, a panel member and an associate professor of medicine from Duke University Medical Center who voted to ban the combination prescription medicines. “We’re here because there are inadvertent overdoses that are fatal, and this is our one opportunity to have a big impact.”

Consumers need to be better educated about the risks of popular medicines, most panel members agreed.

“If you keep track of what you’re taking, none of this is an issue for you,” Dr. Jan Engle, a panel member and head of the Department of Pharmacy Practice at the University of Illinois (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_illinois/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in Chicago, said in an interview after the meeting.

Donald G. McNeil Jr. contributed reporting from New York.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yes, MV, not only horrible, but it angers me that Pfizer was only concerned about their "good name" and the income stream from a "trusted heritage" drug, and really never gave a damn about any of the babies that their product might have killed in the process.

The point they refuse to concede, is that paracetamol downgrades the immune system and make all infections potentially more serious than if the person never took anything.

Even when WHO concedes that paracetamol increases disease morbidity (the seriousness of the infection) as well as increasing mortality i.e. deaths from diseases treated with paracetamol, Pfizer turns a blind eye, purely for the kaching... .

Pfizer don't give a damn. :mad:

And I have a hard job believing that the New Zealand Health Departement now gives a damn because the very doctor who sent that press release to Pfizer, is part of the health Department, so frankly, I don't think they give a damn either. :mad:

But then you know, perhaps I'm an :alien: who has no idea what they are talking about :giggle:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

so how come, MV that an author, Janet Neel can figure it out, and I can figure it out from medical literature, but that government minions have to be forced to figure it out, by repeated shoving of the evidence up various orifices???

[MinorityView]

I see Pfizer provided a non-response.

I love the way that these creeps, when you shove them into a corner, claim that your references are outdated and not peer-reviewed.

Crap!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I didn't reply to that, but still have the letter I wrote at the time.

It was going to be something along the lines of, "And exactly what DATE did you bring out pamol? If you judge that date, by the earliest of my references, then the date of your bringing out pamol was way before the dates of the articles to which I refer.

So exactly where is your head?"

[MinorityView]

the date thing is one of those arguments that sounds superficially reasonable but is bs.

A few years back I was in a fluoride debate. I brought up a scientist who pointed out that fluoride messed with enzymes. One of the people on the other side said that the article was from 1982. I said that if fluoride messed with enzymes in 1982 it still messed with enzymes in 2007, unless they had research showing that it didn't. No response.

[Nirvana]

the date thing is one of those arguments that sounds superficially reasonable but is bs.

A few years back I was in a fluoride debate. I brought up a scientist who pointed out that fluoride messed with enzymes. One of the people on the other side said that the article was from 1982. I said that if fluoride messed with enzymes in 1982 it still messed with enzymes in 2007, unless they had research showing that it didn't. No response.

:snort:

But seriously, do you think it really makes any difference at ground level where people still reach for the nearest painkiller at the slightest of headache blissfully unaware of the dangers of these drugs. The way in which these medicines are marketed, I doubt very few people will read these reports and change their minds. The damage has already been done.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

In that case, Nirvana, is there any point in this board, or any of us saying anything?

[Nirvana]

But don't you see MT the majority of people who use such discussion boards will be the last ones to reach for allopathic medicines to treat themselves or their families.

I was talking about the poor people in developing countries who read very little and just follow 'the doctor's orders.' Just like the ones who vaccinate their children believing the doctor is always right.

[Grizzled Gran]

You know EXACTLY what they are talking about! You mentioned it yourself - ka-ching! Injury & death are not their concern.
:bangshead:

[3monkeys]

I am up to your response Hilary and its taking me ages cause I keep stopping and reading aloud to DH.

I keep saying to him that I have people say to me all the time, mainly on forums, that they (pharms) wouldnt lie and have our best interests at heart, and I have always maintained they only have profit at heart. This kinda proves it in my mind. It astounds me and doesnt surprise me all at the same time.

Nirvana, I beleive that its worth it for the people out there who do go hmmmmmmmmm that doesnt sit right with me. Without this sort of info "they" maintain the upper hand. And IMO you cant change the minds of the people who dont want to "see" but for the people who do you can plant the seed. And once that seed grows they plant seeds, and so it grows........

Thanks so much for putting this thread up. Crazy.

[Nirvana]

I think my response has been little misunderstood. I don't keep my mouth shut when it comes to vaccines. I am so vocal about this that I have lost few friends due to this. Does it bother me? NO! Am I going to stop spreading the word about vaccines? NO!

But I am beginning to see that there are people who have already made up their minds without going into the nitty gritty details just because the doctor and their neighbor said so! They believe their children will never be the ones to be affected/damaged by vaccines. Just the way the parents who drug their kids so that they behave/sleep on long-distance flights believe that their children are somehow immune to the ill-effects of paracetamol. Yeah I know people who give paracetamol to their healthy children on flights just for the sake of a hassle-free journey!

I am really pissed off today! I am sorry if I did not make myself clear before.

Hilary, you have done this way more intelligently and accurately than any of us could have ever imagined. More power to you and the work you do! Apologies if I hurt you...it was completely unintentional.

[MinorityView]

Yeah, there are definitely people who refuse to think. Life eventually hits them over the head and they wake up...or not as the case may be. Nothing you can do about it.

[MinorityView]

A little tidbit about Phenacetin caught my eye last night:

This interchange would have occurred sometime before 1925--the printed source doesn't provide a date.


Dr. K.: What actually happens when a medicine, let us say Phenacetin (an allopathic analgesic-ed.) is taken? Is that an etheric process?

R. Steiner: Medicines like Phenacetin are terrible remedies. They are pure shock remedies. They are frightful and not to be desired. These remedies are moreover not taken up by the astral body. They remain quite detached. At the same time the body is ruined.So I went looking for info on the drug and found this handy bit on, where else, wikipedia:


Phenacetin was widely used until the third quarter of the twentieth century, often in the form of an "A.P.C." or aspirin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin)-phenacetin-caffeine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine) compound analgesic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_analgesic), as a remedy for fever and pain. However the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Food_and_Drug_Administration) ordered the withdrawal of drugs containing Phenacetin in November 1983, owing to its carcinogenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogenic) and kidney-damaging properties (Federal Register of October 5, 1983 (48 FR 45466)). As a result some branded, previously phenacetin-based preparations continued to be sold, but with the phenacetin replaced by safer alternatives. A popular brand of phenacetin was Roche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann-La_Roche)'s Saridon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saridon), which was reformulated in 1983 to contain propyphenazone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propyphenazone), paracetamol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol) and caffeine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine). Coricidin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coricidin) was also reformulated without Phenacetin. Paracetamol is a metabolite of phenacetin with similar analgesic and antipyretic effects, but the new formulation has not been found to have phenacetin's carcinogenicity.Note the connection with Paracetamol!

There is something fundamentally wrong with the way allopathic medicine looks at the body. We should start a graveyard for long-used drugs that turned out to do something truly terrible to the human body.

[I don't think any of the internal links from wikipedia will work, but here is a link to the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenacetin]

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Nirvana, you didn't upset me. My reply just reflects my mood at the moment. I've another case to help relitigate, as of yesterday, (which makes three all told), and I know that when I'm on cases, there are days when I wonder about humanity.

MV, that graveyard would simply leach out into the environment (as it's already doing as per drugs in urine and faeces in sewage) and the fish etc will be the worse off.

[MinorityView]

Indeed!

I was thinking of an online graveyard. With a timeline for each drug, from break through wonder to toxic waste. With an estimated death toll using little tombstones as graphics.